I think unfortunately the issue is deeper than social media trends(anti-queer coin psyops), they have the potential to be effective due to material conditions. As the pressure increases on queer people due to an increase in political hostility, it will increase the appeal of pursuing assimilationist/collaborationist lines. For transmasculine folks, this can mean leaning harder into patriarchal masculinity and misogyny. The cowards who would cross the line must be handled firmly, if they will not listen to reason and change their ways. Simultaneously I think the work of maintaining welcoming, inclusive anti-collaborationist spaces (as it sounds like you have been doing) is even more vital than ever
This has happened 3 times in the past 2 years or so.
How many trans guys in total have you had experiences with in that time?
I always get curious about things that may get seen as varying levels of prominent, compared to their actual rate of occurrence. (Sometimes it's different and also sometimes it's not, but it's always worth keeping the rate in mind.)
A good number, maybe like 20 in person. It's just weird cause this wasn't a problem before
People always pretend that's a tumblr thing, but if it ever was it has long spread beyond that and it's now a community wide thing that i have seen play out irl more than once. And that shouldn't surprise anybody. When you teach men to act this way, some will always take the bait. It's how patriarchy sustains itself, by offering men safe options to hurt women. Most men only do this in subtle ways they may not even be aware of, but the number of those that are more brutal is always large enough to cause a problem and the number of those who flat-out refuse to hurt, exploit or sideline women is way too often too low.
So how do you deal with this without excluding nonproblematic trans men from your space? Obviously making it "non-men only" cannot be the solution. While it can make sense to have some events restricted to certain queer identities if you have the capacities, just so they have a safer space for themselves, we cannot organize community in a way that shows all cis gay and cis bi and trans men the door. These are still marginalized queer identities that have aligned class interests with us, and besides that nobody wants a door policy that determines if somebody is too masc to enter.
It's important to not make this about these men's gender identity, but about their behavior. Their behavior is openly (trans)misogynist, exclusionary and ultimately aimed to take your space over by bullying trans women out of it. People who behave in that way need to be barred from your space. It's an unfortunate reality of safer spaces under patriarchy that they need to blacklist some people, and these guys sound like prime candidates for that. You need to purge them.
men only spaces are a terrible idea and it doesn't become a good idea if they happen to be trans men
There are a handful of men's spaces that maybe should be men only, as long as there are equivalent gender neutral spaces - gym/pool/spa locker rooms, and public toilets. And even then, that's just because of Western society's hangups about nudity and bathrooms, because some men don't want anyone who isn't a fellow guy to see them in a state of undress, and that's fair.
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Have you stopped to consider that he is a special birthday boy?
Very special.
I might be overly blunt here I hope I'm not, but if you want to run a non-discriminatory mixed gender space then this has to be addressed. If someone feels mad about being excluded and their response is to exclude people there's unresolved issues.
Does it mean I am against them having a men only space? No. Being transgender is difficult enough already. But your space isn't women only, is it? So why are you getting the blame for it?
Being a victim doesn't give anyone free pass to take it out on others. That's not justice. Justice means resolving the problem between the people involved in the incident and keep it contained to the incident. I know that this is unsatisfying answer, but I really don't think there is a satisfying answer.
Ultimately the question is: Are the guys using their space for healing so that they're capable of interacting with other people, in a non-discriminatory fashion, provided they themselves get equal treatment, or do they want to be dudes only club for the rest of days?
The last couple times the problem solved itself (they left cause we are a community not a gay bar basically) but if I see him again I'll give him a stern talking to
trans women trying to make LGBT spaces all about them so they only let trans men in
What was that study saying, iirc, that if women are talking 30% of the time, men will perceive the discussion as being dominated by women. We see whining abt "trans women taking up all the space" way more than we see trans women ever actually doing that (in fact 90% of the trans women we know could stand to take up a bit more space, ourself included), perhaps that (trans)misogynistic perception is the reason why
we live in society where men are socialized to be rude, mean, exclusionary and women are socialized to be nice and polite. men showing up to our center are rude, mean, exclusionary while women are nice and polite. what could be the cause of this.
I can attest that as a trans guy I've experienced, and know trans men, who have experienced being iced out of spaces for being too masc. Most of the trans spaces I've been to are primarily trans femme (plus trans men, I GUESS). It's like you reach a certain point in transition and it's no longer "uwu cute baby boy" and then it's "ew yucky masc."
I'm mentioning this because this might explain their attitude. I get the frustration. I also grew up and stopped giving a shit and just try to hang out with my people.
These guys need to grow up and realize that it's not appropriate to go to a mixed space and refuse to talk to the other people there. It's one thing to have your boys club, it's another to be like "we're not talking to YOU, ladies" and deadass stare while standing in a space they are guests in. It's stupid and dare I say "cringe".
Yeah we don't have problems with mascs or anything it's a mixed space. A lot of the mascs (and to a lesser degree, some buff people of other presentations) help chaperone people that feel unsafe for whatever reason. It's great to have reliable people with some muscle around. If we were just for trans femmes or whatever the space wouldn't be as safe and as big as we would like imo.
These guys need to grow up and realize that it's not appropriate to go to a mixed space and refuse to talk to the other people there. It's one thing to have your boys club, it's another to be like "we're not talking to YOU, ladies" and deadass stare while standing in a space they are guests in. It's stupid and dare I say "cringe".
It's just typical passive aggressive bullshit that men do. If you have a problem hanging out with chicks, then don't hang out in spaces with chicks. There's plenty of places where dudes can be dudes surrounded by other dudes.
Misandry
Trans men are men! 
Trans men are men. 
My brother is the most horrifically toxically masculine dickhead I know. Just because he doesn't have a dick, doesn't seem to preclude him from thinking with the wrong head and being a dick.
(Our dad's a massive dickwad too, but usually not in misogynistic or toxically masculine ways, he's just a crappy person, in ways that would be exactly the same if he was a woman.)
I think trans men can often be worse for this than a lot of cis guys, cause they feel like they've got something to prove - I know my fluidity can make me try to compete with cis men in stupid masculinity contests sometimes (though usually this happens when I'm shifted feminine, actually - as a guy I don't care, it's easier to avoid crying and emotion if I don't do dangerous shit I could get hurt at just because the other guys are doing it, but as a girl I get a thrill out of beating the boys at some traditionally masculine task despite being not just a woman, but probably wearing something pink and a skirt that day - my dad can say to my brother "a real man could do this" in front of me in a cute sundress, and I'll go over there and do the damn task to shut them up).
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Most of this is adding to the discussion so I don't want to remove it but please remove the joke about genitals, it's shitty to bring up a trans person's lack of the genitals that they probably want and we don't want to trigger anybody's dysphoria.
Its definitely some social media thing, men are not ok and that obviously includes trans men. Even 5 yrs ago or dudes were being weird and overcompensatory and there were alt right trans masc sorts like Kevin Garrah that had near cult-like gatherings on a lot of Reddit-adjacent spaces. As empoc I've found those dudes don't want me around neither, and won't listen to me. I've gotten kicked out of discords and groups just for being Chicano, nothing more.
The naive youth think because they pass and they're dudebros they're safe. Horseshit, no one is safe, and the right only sees one as a tool and will never treat nor see them as their authentic selves. Communities only thrive united, this is how they pull us apart to you know, do bad stuff to us, old playbook from the 70s.
I think misogyny and clique behaviour in general has increased in young dudes
So I don't agree with it. The person shouldn't be doing that and has some things to unpack. However, it's understandable at the same time.
There is a current issue in online queer spaces that have conflated trans men with cis men. Hell, any transition from F to M in any capacity is often met with hostility in general spaces at worst and ignored at best. It can honestly be very very difficult to talk about issues that you are facing in online spaces because your posts will often get ignored or flamed to death about how you need to shut up cause other people have bigger problems. Even if say those problems are homelessness,removed, etc. It's honestly really bad.
Then you have the constant issue of "women and NB only spaces" cropping up in transpaces and the likes. Me and others have criticized this at length because it is and will always be inherently transphobic to every branch of gender presentation and identity. To try and TL;DR a very complicated thing. Whatever you use to identify a woman and NB only space will always exclude a person physically or their idenity. Of course the same issues are going to be a problem for a "men's only" space. Regardless of whether it's trans or not.
Like, I want to stress how horrifying it is and how isolating it is for various people that you just cannot talk about your issues anywhere as a certain type of trans person online. Thankfully, I have a IRL space but many people don't have that.
Which leads to the other side of this. This was probably going to be inevitable. These trans guys are NOT CIS MEN. However, at the same time, as this op (because honestly at a certain point I don't know what else to call it. It's way to manufactured) continues you are going to have bigots do the thing they always do and try and recruit these trans guys. Which will meet different levels of success. I mean ffs you have nazi furries and elaborate campaigns to funnel as many furries into nazi ideology as possible and they constantly have to be kicked out.
The thing is, a lot of us have been butches before anything else. A lot of us are used to the neglect and shit and often keep each other in line when someone starts doing stupid toxic masculinity shit. Honestly, to be a butch is to suffer ngl. However, it's inevitable that trans men are not going to go through the same routes every time, and a few of them are going to fall through the cracks of support.
"But this is IRL!" You may say, well, sadly, this person has a problem with the brain worms before coming here, and just like Christian evangelists will take the bad experience they created back about how they were trying to be othered or attacked by trans women and it'll just further cement the cult-like attitude.
Honestly, this is one of those things that scares me a little. As a genderfluid person, I kind of just get shit from everywhere and everyone. So I get to see this stuff from a perspective that most people cannot or choose not to see. Which, if I'm being blunt, sums up to reinventing the wheel of gender shackles. This is why I'm trying to stress here that the call is coming from inside the house, and it's a big issue that is happening for everyone. There is this idea that trans men are coming after trans women and trans women are coming after trans men. It has got to stop. (Not saying OP is doing this, just speaking about the general issue going on here that i've been watching get worse and worse for 2 years now)
What does all of this mean?
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Any trans person who treats the other trans identities as a cis person is a problem.
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There is a very big OP going on in online trans spaces to cause trans people to attack and be transphobic to other trans people.
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As long as we cling to gender binaries, this issue is going to get worse, and we are going to be right back where we started from.
Edit: As far as what to do about this? Honestly, as someone who has had to deal with their own various community-building things. I would try and approach this person when they arrive. Tell them straight up what's going on, in a nice, gentle way. And if they refuse to be nice and open to all trans people. Then they honestly need to be told they can stay in their men's-only group and not come back. It's harsh but you gotta do what you gotta do sometimes. Normally we have things in place if someone wants to try and come back if they fix their shit, but that rarely happens. Pride is one hell of a drug, I tell you.
There is a current issue in online queer spaces that have conflated trans men with cis men.
I'm sorry but what on this green and blue earth does this have to do with the subject at hand? I ask because I am genuinely scared that what you're suggesting is that either these trans men aren't as "man" as cis men somehow, or that trans men can't be misogynistic towards trans women. In both cases this is misgendering and for I think obvious reasons this isn't allowed on hexbear and especially not in this comm.
Hell responding to a post about trans men being misogynistic towards trans women with this is a pretty big problem too:
There is this idea that trans men are coming after trans women and trans women are coming after trans men. And it has to stop.
These are not equivalent statements under patriarchy and this narrative is misogynistic. We can't just ignore patriarchy because we'd rather it didn't exist. That there are spaces which hold a counter culture that doesn't center the feelings of men over all others, and doesn't celebrate masculinity over all other varieties of gendered expression is not recreating the shackles of binary gender.
Then you have the constant issue of "women and NB only spaces" cropping up in transpaces and the likes. Me and others have criticized this at length because it is and will always be inherently transphobic to every branch of gender presentation and identity. To try and TL;DR a very complicated thing. Whatever you use to identify a woman and NB only space will always exclude a person physically or their idenity. Of course the same issues are going to be a problem for a "men's only" space. Regardless of whether it's trans or not.
Let me offer you a different perspective. Within POC spaces, there are specifically BIPOC-only spaces and those spaces largely exist because the non-BIPOC POC (eg Asians, non-Afro Latine) have problems with anti-Blackness within their communities and the anti-Blackness is pervasive enough that enough Black people feel that they need their own space separate from both non-BIPOC POCs and crackers. It doesn't mean that those POC aren't POC (although it does show proximity towards whiteness), but why should Black people put up with anti-Black bullshit from people who should know better? And as for "Black people can be Sinophobic/Indophobic too," Sinophobia and Indophobia are ultimately expressions of white supremacy and those expressions get rewarded through a white supremacist system that rewards the actor based on the actor's proximity towards whiteness. In other words, a Sinophobic Black person who does an anti-Asian hate crime isn't rewarded by crackers in the same way an anti-Black Chinese person is, so anti-Asian hate crimes and bigotry cannot be viewed in the same light as anti-Black hate crimes and bigotry.
POC spaces will inevitably "center" Black people and why shouldn't it? They, relative to other POCs, suffer more from racial oppression. That means trauma from Black people, which means there will be more discussion tailored towards the Black experience about coping with that trauma and how to navigate and survive in an anti-Black world. The POC mega in this very website is testament to this fact. Just recently, there's a discussion about how anti-Blackness bleeds into hair preference. The popular categorization of hair texture, invented by a thoroughly anti-Black cracker hair stylist of course, insidiously smuggles in anti-Blackness. Imagine that. Crackers somehow weaponized hair as yet another way to shit on Black people. And you could go on and on and on.
And with oppression comes resistance. POC spaces don't need and shouldn't be a pity party of BIPOC or every other POC being oppressed by crackers. There's plenty of room for Black triumphs, of moments in history and personal stories of racist crackers being put in their place by Black people. But those celebrations, by virtue of celebrating Black resistance against anti-Black oppression, will "center" POC spaces towards Black people as well.
To loop this back into the topic of trans people, trans space will always "center" transfems by virtue of transfems being the ones most oppressed by cisheteronormativity, which means more room in which transfems can vent, grief, console, offer advice, and be triumphant over big and small wins.
conflated trans men with cis men
These trans guys are NOT CIS MEN.
Any trans person who treats the other trans identities as a cis person is a problem.
If you would similarly insist that i am "not a cis woman" over and over again and openly advocate for not treating me like a cis woman, i would feel flat-out attacked in my womanhood. Trans and cis aren't genders, they are relationships between our assigned gender and our actual gender identity. Man and woman, however, are genders. Trans men are men, trans women are women, there is zero to discuss about that. Treating binary trans identities as special third genders that must be handled differently than their cis counterparts is flat-out transphobic, even if you use it to craft free transmisogyny passes for trans men. Stop telling other trans people what our genders are.
Edit: Oh wait, i missed the transmisogyny classic:
As long as we cling to gender binaries, this issue is going to get worse, and we are going to be right back where we started from.
You are implying i am flat-out problematic for being a woman and hide it as a critique of the gender binary. You hardcore misogynist. Work through your internalized transphobia ASAP. This is a fucking disgrace.
There is this idea that trans men are coming after trans women
These are literally trans men coming after trans women and you are making up excuses for them.
cw csa
I find myself struggling within this discussion. I’m transmasc and mostly identify as a man, and I largely agree with you. What I’m unsure about is where to situate trans men within the patriarchal system.
For me, the analysis that looks solely at present gender identity is not sufficient. Because life experience as a child has a large impact on a person as adult. Most trans men carry a trauma with them from being victim of sexualisation as a child. This experience is not exclusive to people who grew up being perceived as a girl, but patriarchy makes it systemic form of oppression towards children who are perceived as girls.
When I read “trans men should not be treated as cis men” I want to agree because burden I carry with me because of my childhood trauma’s is caused by misogyny. That experience makes me feel, in some moments, more connected to women than cis men. But at the same time I agree with you that trans men are not somehow unaffected by patriarchy, and often will contribute to the oppression of women.
This dynamic makes me feel conflicted all the time, because I know I have to make space for women in trans spaces, to fight against the patriarchal system. But at the same time I am in need of space to process my own childhood trauma’s which have experienced as unwelcome in trans spaces.
ok this became some severe trauma dumping, CWs: CSA, bullying, suicide, police violence, transphobia
First of all, i need to preface this with a rule my friend group has. We do not compare trauma. We have this rule because all of us have been hurt and many of us have a subconscious tendency to minimize our own trauma because "others had it worse". I do not write any of the following to one up you or anybody else reading this, as i have no idea what you have been put through. I write it to offer my perspective and shed a light on my childhood as a trans girl, and the childhoods of trans girls close and dear to me. And i cannot speak about the childhood of trans men and transmasculine nonbinary people. So i won't, and stick to my side of the story.
With that out of the way, i feel you on this. I'm a CSA survivor as well, like a lot of my transfem friends. My childhood wasn't that of a boy. I did not have a different gender identity as a child. I constantly failed to perform masculinity in the way my classmates did. My voice was too high, i cried too easily, i was too soft, i could not play ball and i failed to be a proper misogynist and homophobe. And i was punished for this mercilessly and without end. I was beaten black and blue, i was bloodied, i was attacked so hard i ended up in the hospital one time, and i was also subjected to sexualized violence by several different classmates.
I did not grow up with the privilege cis boys get. I was a girl that boys were allowed to hit and the only way out was to repress my gender identity, go through the wrong puberty, fail in relationships, fail to take the offer of joining the men's networks at work, and worse than any of this it made me deny myself, made me incapable to accept who i am and i lost decades not transitioning. Before i lived as a woman, i did not live as a man or a boy. I didn't live at all. I was a ghost, a shadow of a person, an assemblage of different masks that i switched between depending on which group i was in, always fake, always fragmentary, never whole, never a full person.
And that experience isn't universal among trans women in all of its aspects, but out of dozens, maybe over a hundred trans women i know irl, i do not know a single one whose childhood was that of a normal, happy boy. Not one. Each and every one of us was the most brutally bullied kid in her class at some point. A substantial number still have the exit plan they made during that time present in their mind. Some say they find comfort in the knowledge they could die at any time. When i say that we do not start being subjected to transmisogyny when we come out, i fully mean it. We have been hurt for who we are before anybody understood what that meant. We do not fit into patriarchy. Maybe you don't either, i can't speak for you. But i'm saying that trans people break the patriarchal modus operandi harder than anybody else and that we may not grasp the full extend of that by comparing ourselves to cis people of the same assigned gender. I cannot make sense of my life if i compare childhood me only to men instead of other women.
Sooooo. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that when you make a claim that you had a childhood that still connects you to womanhood through shared trauma, this inversely implies i had a male socialization. You said that at no point and i will not put words in your mouth. In fact, i think that it's a constant among queer kids of all genders to be punished for our queerness before we even realize we are queer. And that in spite of that being different and unique between trans and cis people, between gays and lesbians, between trans men and trans women, between binary and nonbinary people, we share a common ground of being outsiders to the patriarchal system.
But i need to point to a decades-long and ongoing history of lesbian and feminist spaces excluding trans women and including trans men, not just nonbinary transmasc butches, but binary heterosexual trans men, while excluding us from these spaces in the most viciously misgendering ways possible. Once more, i am not pointing to that to say you are participating in it. I am saying that this history is pervasive in queer spaces that are largely comprised of cis women and transmasculine people, and that a lot of trans women are very painfully aware of this. Often because of direct lived experience, or because they have several close friends who have gone through that. Among many other examples, i have a friend who got told as a freshly outed 17 year old transfem, by a transmasculine person who was almost a decade older, that she had to put herself out on the frontlines at a protest in a city with the most violent cops in the country (which ended with her being subjected to traumatizing police violence and several days of being arrested and further traumatized) and later informed her that because of male socialization, she could obviously never be allowed in AFAB Only spaces and could not be trusted in the same way female socialized trans people were. Because she just lacked that connection to womanhood. Sometimes transmisogyny likes to wear the hyperwoke costume, but it still stays rancid terf shit.
And when you come into a space with all the baggage of having grown up as a trans girl, and a random trans man you do not know claims that he is connected to womanhood because of his childhood trauma, this history of brutal exclusion means that a lot of trans women will take that as an invalidation of their own trauma, their gender identity, their right to be in lesbian spaces, their right to have any safe space at all that is not exclusively for transfeminized people.
Once more, i did not take your comment to say any of that, but i know how comments like that often come across, especially if there is less context than in your case. This is why transbian seperatism is a thing, this is why i cringe at the idea of ever dating a cis woman again, this is why i reserve all my love and kindness for other transfeminized people. Because nobody else loves us. People say they do, but you cannot love what you don't understand and other trans women are the only people that truly get me. They are the only ones i can look at these scars with safely, the only people i can truly open up and be seen as myself with. I would not have been able to write this text out if it wasn't for the constant love and support of my best friend, the girl who is closer to my heart than anybody else has ever been. But even that is seen as offensive by misogynist trans men, who will throw a tantrum when trans women assert their boundaries and say they want to center other trans women in their lifes.
Thank you for your response. I definitely did not intend to imply that trans women do not experience misogyny before transitioning, or that they have a “male” childhood/socialisation. Although I understand how my words could have suggested that. I fully acknowledge that childhood for most trans people is traumatic, because you are expected to be or are treated as someone you’re not. And I also fully acknowledge that trans women and enbies can experience the same type of sexualisation that cis women experience when they are children. Feminine cis men probably experience it too. And just to be clear, I am not comparing the experience of feminine men to that of trans women here, these experiences are probably different. Just as how my experiences with sexualisation and assault are different from that of cis and trans women.
When I wrote that I feel like my childhood traumas connect me to women more than cis men in some moments, I intently did not write cis women, because I feel this connection to trans women as well. Which I suppose is partly why it hurt to feel like my experience was unwelcome in some female dominated trans communities. Your reply did make me understand better where the unwelcomeness could have come from though. I can be more careful about the words I choose to describe it.
thank you!
you are one of the only people I see getting away with attacking trans people on this site, Im transfemme and I don't think Athena5898 is attacking me
They are outright saying that trans people should not be treated like cis people of the same gender. How much more open does the internalized transphobia have to be so you get it?
Noted. I'd rather not go down this road with you, so good luck with whatever this is
Im transfemme and I don't think Athena5898 is attacking me
What odd wording when what Serial (and I) feel attacked by is specifically the stuff about our binary identities as women. Usually I associate transfemme with NBs.
I would feel flat-out attacked in my womanhood.
Honestly every time someone trots out this whole, trans men are super different from cis men thing I do feel that way.
even if you use it to craft free transmisogyny passes for trans men.
Incredible thing for someone who is TME to do btw
Also thank you for popping up in this thread I hoped you would.
Thanks, this is literally the kind of shit Julia Serrano described in Whipping Girl and half of hexbears' trans userbase called her exorsexist for pointing out that other gender variant people can also be transmisogynist. I feel physically ill after working through that post.
However, it's understandable at the same time.
Understandable for a man to be misogynistic?
There is a current issue in online queer spaces that have conflated trans men with cis men.
See I just don't get this one bit. I would love to be conflated with cis women. I am literally the same thing. Just with a birth defect. Like I understand you're NB and that's fine but like, yea no shit I want to be seen the same as cis women. I'm a woman.
Then you have the constant issue of "women and NB only spaces"
Yea I agree this is stupid. Maybe women and fem spaces would be better. Or something idk how to word it.
this person has a problem with the brain worms before coming here
No I'd say they're a misogynist/transmisogynist. I wouldn't downplay it as brainworms.
Any trans person who treats the other trans identities as a cis person is a problem.
My identity is literally the same as a cis woman. What are you saying? My identity is woman. The same as a cis woman's.
Your identity is the same as a cis women but you will not experience life the same as a cis women. You face different at times worse challenges then a cis women because cis women are more protected in a intersectionality sense then trans women.
The same is true for trans men.
This isn't even covering the fact that while you might want to be cis. There are trans people (hello) who do not want to be cis.
I could be wrong but I feel like there is a lot going on here for you. But I am not excusing someone going down the path of misogyny but I also do not think it is useful or honest to ignore what has been happening in queer spaces. Some of us have been trying to raise the alarm for years and have been ignored.
This generally speaking is a place of understanding that how you feel does not change the material conditions. I have come here and pointed out the material conditions that have lead to this and yes THAT is understandable. Patriarchy isn't something that just happens because of some evil hormone, gene, or DNA. It happens through a complex society structure that enforces it. Trans men are not inherently more prone to patriarchy then anyone else. Given certain types of feminism likes to ignore the truth of women especially white women who uphold it themselves. (This has been studied to death).
I used brainworms as a short hand cause I didn't feel like typing a novel. But it is certainly not downplaying it. Pointing at a problem and saying "we should be aware of this and fix it" is not making excuses. I mean I don't really know how one could think I was making excuses after the edit I put.
Patriarchy isn't something that just happens because of some evil hormone, gene, or DNA.
Somebody always constructs the bioessentialism strawman in this kind of discussion, even though literally nobody has blamed testosterone or chromosomes.
It happens through a complex society structure that enforces it.
No, it happens because men are using a complex social structure for the subjugation of women and all other non-men for its intended purpose. For subjugation. They use patriarchal modes of opression to extract labor, to violate, to silence. Patriarchy doesn't just happen. People actively practice it, people derive material benefit from it, and other people suffer from that because we are exploited, undervalued, used and pushed aside.
Trans men are not inherently more prone to patriarchy then anyone else. Given certain types of feminism likes to ignore the truth of women especially white women who uphold it themselves. (This has been studied to death).
Patriarchy, famous for its gender neutrality. Do you hear yourself talk? Yes, i get it, there are women that participate in patriarchy. Patriarchal structures can be used by women to hurt other women, and they are used this way. And yes, white women use it to hurt women of color. Cis women use it to hurt trans women. Trans women use it to hurt other trans women. All of that is true.
But none of that changes that patriarchy is, at its core, a system that allows men the opression of women.
Why do you have to distort the nature of patriarchy like this? Why do you have to completely obfuscate who it materially benefits the most? Because these women who collaborate with men to uphold patriarchy aren't the ones who get the most out of it, they are still below men that share their class, race, etc. A white woman who becomes a class collaborator in the system of gendered class violence and upholds patriarchy exchanges servitude to white men for the limited privilege of ruling over women of color. She is still relatively marginalized even when she upholds patriarchy. She participates in a system that exists for the benefit of men.
And on top of that, it is blatantly obvious who commits the majority of patriarchal violence. It's men. And they mostly harm women and other people who aren't men.
Yea I agree this is stupid. Maybe women and fem spaces would be better. Or something idk how to word it.
Depending on what theyre actually going for, marginalized genders (also called MaGes or mages) or gender oppressed covers the bases without being weird but the language is clunky
I had just assumed they were largely for women, while trying to be inclusive to people who felt (pardon my language) woman adjacent? I have never been to such a group. If it is for women and trans people then yea that sounds good to me.
Well trans men are also trans. While trans men are not marginalized based on their male gender, they are absolutely marginalized on the grounds of transness, a definitely gender-related category, in spite of clearly being men. And they are frequently - and rightfully- included under marginalized genders. Because transphobia is fucking real for all trans people. Trans men are marginalized. I'm saying this as one of the most radical transfeminists on this site, i am 1000% solidaric with trans men. And i am saying this from experience with labels and modes of organizing that were supposed to include everybody marginalized on gender-related grounds under patriarchy and that are now showing their limitations more and more.
I'm German, i have been in spaces organizing under the FLINTA acronym (women, lesbians, inter, nonbinary, trans, agender) for the entire time i've been out as a trans woman. And while on paper it sounds like a nice catchall way to include everybody who is marginalized on the grounds of not being a binary perisex cis guy, in practice there has been a host of problems with the usage of this term and using it to police access to spaces. You simultaneously have trans men feeling implicitly misgendered by having their masculinity denied, trans women feeling they need to pass well enough to get past the door, terfy cis women using FLINTA exclusively for people who are not binary perisex cis women and women for those who are as if it wasn't super obvious that they are third gendering the trans and inter women, cis dudes walking into the space and saying they identify as an attack helicopter etc. etc. (yes, these are all examples i've witnessed personally).
It mostly works as intended ... until it doesn't. There's always somebody getting caught in the crossfire, there are always edge cases and it's very hard to implement a FLINTA only door policy without this very real problem: You always end up with having to enforce it. With enforcing that, you check genders at the door. That never goes well unless except for the people who pass as a cis woman or are trying hard enough that the bouncer clocks them as obvious clocky trans women. I did not notice it for a long time due to my own passing privilege, but the FLINTA approach routinely causes people of all kinds of genders to either be excluded or having to explain themselves to staff and visitors, you are basically mandating forced outings with a door policy like that. Well, in theory, in practice it means that a lot of people who should feel safe in these spaces stay at home instead after having been turned away in the past or after having had awkward experiences.
We seriously cannot organize queer community spaces on gender-based exclusion, no matter how inclusive our category who is allowed in happens to be. Queer spaces already self-select in a way that keeps away most problematic guys, the rest is best dealt with by an appropriate code of conduct and a well-briefed awareness team. That isn't perfect, either, blacklists can and are abused to bully and harass people, but it's still a more workable approach than questioning everybody's gender at the door.
to be a butch is to suffer ngl
damn i thought this was just me and i kind of didn't feel right saying it because of idk solidarity or something. sucks to know its widespread but also nice to know its not me being a fuckup or something

Have you ever heard of Stone Butch Blues? It might be a good but sad read for you.
But yeah. Its about not being part of gender conformity that fucks us a lot. We kind of have to deal with everyone else's baggage a lot. Either someone's toxic masculinity trying to put us in our place or someone trying to force us back in the box of what they think being a women means. Its exhausting honestly. Its honestly amazing that despite all the harping on theory you see a lot, so many people (especially queer people) have a hard time understanding intersectionality. When you are queer and dealing with other queer people we basically live in intersection junction with all the complex things going on. But everyone always wants to shove us back in boxes.
But anyway. Solitary 
nah, it is narrativized for butch identities since at least Stone Butch Blues. Assuming you're also butch, lot of folks don't take kindly that we are not so easily readable.
Real
traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns
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