askchapo

From my own experience, social anxiety. Its not like I can't even talk to girls. Shit, I probably get along with some better than I do dudes, but I always hesitate to take any action that might have elevated stakes. And I've worked hard on convincing my self not to think this way.

I'm a woman who lives in a college town famous for its high quality Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering and Computer Science degrees. So the woman to man ratio in the 20-30 age group is like 1:4 at best.

So a lot of guys I'm friends with just don't get laid cause the math doesn't work out 🤷

Some of them tho... should probably do a bit of soul-searching first. Being dismissive about "female interests" like makeup and the gym while also being weirdly fetishistic about "gamer grill interests" like cosplay and video games just makes talking to them really hard. Like, they'll always look at everything you say through a lens of "how does that benefit ME?" - Talking to them is a literal minefield.

Another factor is also that they'll exclusively hang out in male spaces and just expect women to show up and talk to them somehow??? Like yeah, don't sign up to ballet just to creep on women, but expanding your horizon beyond Friday Night Magic won't kill you. I've heard Lorcana is great, and there are plenty of women playing it at my local game store.. just casually talking to them during a game would be a normal human interaction

Some excerpts from @[email protected]'s effortpost response to a similar question:

First is that I'm of the opinion not everyone is always in a place in their life where they're likely to get a good match even if they're trying. People are often reluctant to talk about these parts of their lives, so I'll share my experience with this.

There was a period in my late 20s where I really struggled to find someone - this dry spell lasted maybe 4 years. Looking back on this period it's easy to see that even though I was interesting, fit, had hobbies, good hygiene, etc, I was very likely emitting some weird vibes that alienated me from potential partners. That was probably a mixture of sadness (due to loneliness), desperation, but also some incoherent mix of pride and self-loathing. I also had social anxiety that I hadn't learned to control.

That is to say, I was never undeserving of a connection, but had some ways of being (that were hard for me to recognize about myself at the time) which made it hard for me to form those connections.

I have friends who had dry spells for much, much longer - but while what I wrote above didn't directly related to them a lot of it did. We were all lucky enough to find love in the end.

I have no way of knowing if this applies to you of course, but I do feel like we have a tendency to euphemize these periods as "dry spells" without talking honestly about the loneliness, uncertainty, vulnerability and fear that can often be felt during these times.

My advice is to take the pressure off yourself - maybe right now isn't the time and when you look back you'll see why. The self-imposed pressure to have a partner can build a desperation that seeps out, and is deeply unsexy. I recognize this is a frustrating paradox, but the only way around it is to learn to be comfortable with who you are. It's ok to be single though, and gives you a lot of extra time.

I would strongly recommend using this time to work on yourself - learn an instrument, learn to bake, learn a language, read interesting books, etc. Don't don't just smoke weed, play video games and watch YouTube. Build yourself into an even more interesting person than you already are. If you have mental health issues, use this extra time you have to put some serious work into addressing them.

But also, do activities that give you experience talking to different types of people in a low-stress, non-sexual environment. Get active in your local left org, join a book club, volunteer at a soup kitchen, join a community soccer team, get involved in municipal politics, do language exchange, take a dance class, go to community events they post at the library or community center. Get used to saying yes to things even if it scares you a bit.

[...]

Anyhow, there is no easy answer to this problem. The best I can do is tell you that this isn't that uncommon, a lot of us have been there, it is hard, often humiliating, generally sucks, and you don't deserve it. I mostly hope that just knowing that even though you feel alone you aren't, in a way. I really hope you find someone you deserve comrade.

there's more than one kind of that guy. for example, i'm broke, mildly disabled, and don't like churches or bars.

not hating women is below the bare minimum and gets me exactly as many cookies as I deserve for such a great exertion.

From meeting a lot of these people and being one when I was younger (I was a CS major and work in software) I do think the main reason is just really poor social skills.

Like everything else socialization is a skill that can be learned, even later in life, and like all skills the important thing is that you get a lot of exposure & practice (not online). Unfortunately there's a feedback loop where if you're bad at it people will want to socialize with you less and you'll get less practice. Transcending this loop is one of the great challenges of growing up.

For me I managed to get out of it by making female friends. Women for whatever reason have much more advanced social skills than men at most ages in our society, and are much more accepting of people without highly developed social skills as friends. Women also tend to organize many more social events & hangouts than men. Here's the thing though, women can also detect any secret horniness behind your actions like a shark can smell blood in water from a mile away. You are 100% not being subtle no matter how much you think you are. So if you as a hetero man want to make female friends you have to, from the very start, make a deal with yourself to never ever sexualize them in your mind. Dispel all such thoughts of this type. Incidentally this is a useful skill in itself, as the :reddit-logo: style "just sexualize everything, it's natural and everybody does it" attitude is so fucking off-putting to almost all adults of any gender. So it's important to realize you can actually control, in your mind, whether you sexualize someone, and make the choice not to do that when you're friends with them. This is not to say these thoughts never occur, everybody has intrusive thoughts about everything even truly unhinged things, but it's a conscious choice whether you want to take that thought and run with it when it happens.

So basically after a few years of just hanging out with women using this method my social skills had developed enough through sheer quantity of training data that I could take flight and make other friends myself, plus of course the friends I had while I was learning were real friends, and this is also coincidentally around the time women started finding me attractive in a more-than-friends way.

Most of the time it's Misogyny. Either their own misogyny or the misogyny of others having similar red flags to what they put out.

Either that or they just haven't met a person that gels with them.

Actually I think a huge factor these days is everyone is too tired and depressed to want to bother with a love life. I don't think people realize just how fucking done with romance most women are. It takes a lot of effort, and capitalism and the hopelessness of the future has sucked the life out of everyone (regardless of gender come to think of it).

As for my self, I'm too tired to bother with romance, and I've witnessed so many friends and family have their lives ruined by abusive relationships that I can't see myself trusting someone unless I was 100% compatible with them.

I’ve been many guys their first gf or first person they dated. It mostly comes down to having a bad self image and terrible tactics when approaching women. After they dated me they were able to date more women because I think I learned them how to behave around them and they probably just gained more confidence because they have more experience.

I take some pride into having turned awkward/incelish men into more normal functioning persons in society.

I’m over it now though, so someone else should take over.

I don't want to inflict myself on anyone else.

I've been told that I'm funny/smart/cute/would make a good partner, including the unintentionally backhanded compliment that is "how are you still single!?", but I also have a heap of mental issues including depression and grief that I feel has hollowed me out as a person. I really struggle with even basic self care & keeping my living space one step above a landfill.

I don't want to make me someone elses problem, and I have a hard time not thinking I'd just drag anyone I meet down.

I have other reasons for still being single in my late 20s with very limited romantic experiences, but not wanting to be the anchor tied around someone's neck is a big part of it. Of course there's also not wanting to be pestering women for dates, dating apps being designed to take your self esteem out behind the shed and shooting it, not having/liking social hobbies, extremely limited social battery, etc etc, but my own mental illnesses/struggles are a big reason I haven't been on a date or had a romantic encounter for 6 or 7 years now.

Maybe my 30s will be brighter than my 20s. I'm trying to be optimistic, but

the joke answer is "go touch grass" but let's be honest it's not always because they're incel types (though my guess is that's usually it)

assorted thoughts:

• most people have at least mild mental health problems and that often makes it hard to connect with people in a healthy way. i fall directly and pathetically into this category myself
• fuckin capitalism profits from isolating people and dissolving community infrastructure that traditionally facilitated dating
• it's way easier to think about how hard it is to interact with potential dates and all the things that could go wrong, than it is to think about all the times you've successfully interacted with humans (with dating intentions or otherwise) and it turned out fine or even fantastic. even worse, we're wired to remember negative experiences with more detail. all my horrible awkward attempts at flirting are chiseled in fuckin marble in my memory, while the times i was normal AND lucky enough for it to be reciprocated, i barely remember in comparison. :[

Sometimes a fear of rejection can lead to not approaching people, and to self-sabotaging when approached

Sometimes desperation to "settle down" can lead to wanting to move too fast for any potential partners who aren't in the same frame of mind, which can contribute to a fear of rejection

The situation I've had the most people talk to me about, though, is rooted in gender essentialism. Of course the main aspect of gender essentialism under patriarchy is misogyny - poisoning how they understand and interact with women - but it also poisons how men relate to their own gender and sexuality. A man's essentialist understanding of what it means to be a man will inevitably lead to a great deal of self-repression as he understands his own traits through a lens of conformity to, or deviance from, his concept of manhood

One of the most surprising and important sets of effects from internalized gender essentialism is its effects on attraction. Rather than asking oneself, "What do I like," the question becomes, "What do men like?" This has two main implications: attraction that falls outside of "what men like" is to be ignored or actively suppressed as deviance, and a lack of attraction to parts of "what men like" is a source of shame and sexual frustration. The remainder, the parts of "what men like" that one is genuinely attracted to, becomes fetishized because it's the only remaining outlet for sexual gratification

I would guess 99% of cases is just they never meet new people and aren't attractive enough to get anywhere with dating apps.

plus there's a newish social phenomena that basically says you shouldn't approach women anywhere. overall probably good because women deal with less unwanted harassment, but if you can't talk to new people at the gym, at stores, outside, at work, and you don't go to parties/bars - you're basically never going to meet anyone.

There are good comments here, but I would also like to add this: too many guys follow the “focus on school/yourself, not girls” advice with terrible outcomes.

The advice is not bad, just incomplete when given to others. Yes, passing your classes is important and so is improving yourself. But these things do not need to happen in a vacuum. Being successful in classes and spending less time on it often involves collaborating with others, and improving yourself - especially in the dating realm - involves socializing with others and maybe even asking people out. If you’re already alone and miserable, locking yourself away from everyone to “focus on math” or “focus on yourself” won’t do you any good.

You should strive to improve yourself and be content with yourself, but it’s a lifelong process. You’ll never reach 100%, and it’s pointless to “wait” until you do. Getting friends and relationships could give you more reason to improve yourself, and even if the relationship fails, you still have that progress and know you can do it again.

I’ve seen plenty of people who claim they’re perfectly happy waiting years, decades to “meet the right one” because they focused on school or improving their bodies and personalities. That’s awesome, but I’ve yet to meet this kind of person in real life. All the people who tell me to “just focus on school” or work first are extremely lonely and miserable. I don’t find their advice too valuable. If you’re dependent and clingy, then perhaps some alone time will help until you build enough confidence to look forward to something in life, but for everyone else, you will likely benefit from trying to form relationships as part of your progress to improving yourself or your self-image.

What would you say the reason is for those guys who cant get a date for the life of them?

You're touching upon an area that leftists (especially the vast majority of hexbears) don't wanna touch with a 12 foot pole: male loneliness.

There are some thoughtful answers here, but most of them are your standard "be yourself and put yourself out there (there's always fish in the sea)" crap that most people tell you.

The truth is that if you want dates/hookups/relationships whatever you need to improve your own looks and improve your game. That doesn't guarantee anything, but you gotta do it. This means actually making your intent known, instead of "trying to be friends" first and then sneakily asking a girl out (btw she can smell this from a mile away, it's better to be bold than sneaky). It means knowing that unless you're super handsome or "hot" many, many women WILL reject you based on looks alone (as a result of the influence of dating apps) and dealing with it. It means developing a life that women want to be a part of. It's more than just "having interesting hobbies" because as others in this thread have said, having hobbies alone doesn't cut it. It's going to be slightly different for everyone but most people can do it. It might also mean finding places where there aren't so many men swarming around a few women (like many nightclubs these days). Interest or hobby groups may also be a good place. If you want similar politics, find a local org or something. Maybe some travel to try out different places, who knows. But there is plenty of advice out there that is concrete and actionable. Who knows what your individual path will be, but I'll post a fantastic video from a leftist perspective on this subject below.

I've already posted about this but I'll post it again, @ComradeLuz, please watch this vid: https://youtu.be/be_Ms3nVG10?si=-C2UfpC1TUPRqI33. It's a video on this topic from a leftist perspective that actually gives concrete advice along with a solid analysis. I posted it here before (https://hexbear.net/post/613122) but it got less than 15 comments (many were mine so in actuality very few comments).

It's very sad because if the left does nothing about it other than useless platitudes of "putting yourself out there" and "be yourself" these men WILL find their way into right-wing spaces and then it might be too late. The worst thing you want is a bunch of sexually frustrated young males not on your side. But oh well, I figure this issue will continue to be ignored...

TL;DR: Watch the next five minutes or so from this timestamp (or better yet, the whole video, IT REALLY IS THAT GOOD): https://youtu.be/be_Ms3nVG10?si=YuPWXVUSQfGspdiF (@15:58)

My first long(-ish)-term relationship was at 25, and before that I definitely was one of those "Woe is me, I will never get a date" people. Then I met a very promiscuous girl at a grocery store (she approached me first) and she cheated on her boyfriend with me for a couple months until she found a new guy to cheat on her boyfriend with. That gave me the confidence I needed to ask out a coworker at work, who was my first real long-term partner.

Now that I "know how the game works", I have more confidence playing. I use the dating apps and do pretty well. I would say that the best thing you can do is keep a level of detachment. My problem before was that I would develop crushes on people and only act on them when I was sure it was what I wanted; I'd ask out maybe one person I really liked per year, and while I'd occasionally get a date, never anything serious or long-term. Now pretty much every time I have a reasonably friendly conversation with a person I find attractive, I give them my number and say I'd like to get lunch sometime. I'd guess I have about a 50% success rate on meeting up with people I approach this way, and maybe 10% for sex.

If you ask out people after you start crushing, the 90% of the time when they just aren't interested can be demoralizing. The key is just to be open and friendly, and cast a wide net (you miss 100% of the shots you don't take!).

for my personal situation, its mostly a combination of lack of disposeable income (and i'm impulsive with it when i do have it), lack of social activities or communities to participate in offline, and social anxiety issues (as a part of broader mental health problems).

while i do have a small friend group, i hate social situations with people i don't know, and am generally too broke to 'go out' or be involved in offline communities. i've had like 1 or 2 people message me on dating apps but i chickened out and panic deleted my accounts. pretty much no one offline has ever expressed any kind of interest (literally one exception a long time ago). i presume my social anxiety makes me come off as unapproachable to most people the few times i am in public or large scale social situations.

There are so, so many different reasons someone, regardless of gender, could have trouble connecting with others intimately, and I think it's genuinely difficult to tell why from both the outside and the inside of the problem. From my limited vantage point though, I think I can identify 3 obvious, broad categories of barrier to people:

First, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that there are not many places to try to pick someone up. Under the old social codes, men could be expected to court women almost anywhere, and women were expected to sit and be pretty if that's what they wanted. This situation sucked absolute ass, especially for women. The question of what, exactly, ought to replace it has not been satisfactorily answered, and the solution the free market gave us, dating apps, is actively hostile to users of all genders. Venues like bars, social clubs, parties, are all imperfect at best. For a while it used to be normal to try to play matchmaker with your friends, and personally I think we should bring that one back.

Second, dating is scary, and the vulnerability of approaching a stranger can be so overwhelming that it scares people off from actually trying. It's pretty obvious in retrospect, but this is what is happening to people who never ask anyone out yet are convinced no one wants them. Man, woman, or wiley jackal, you gotta accept that this fear is universal, and you only help yourself by overcoming it.

Third, the preferred explanation of the "incel," is that some people are disadvantaged in the "sexual marketplace." I'm not convinced this is either universal, or caused by minute difference in skeletal structure, but certain features, including weight, disability, race and height, do present real, but not insurmountable barriers to love. Certain other things like hygiene, grooming, fashion, and conversational ability are just as damaging, but can be improved upon with time and effort. Conversational and interpersonal skills especially are a problem for a lot of people we find on the internet. No matter how autistic you are, I believe this is something that can be improved with practice and experience in a variety of situations both romantic and friendly.

Lack of community and atomisation of the population into profit-units for industry. There are a few very specific avenues for dating "discovery" and if you don't fit into them you don't fit into reproduction within the modern hyper-capitalist landscape at all.

I will in fact blame television for the first wave of this problem, followed by videogames. The takeover of "entertainment" by these two industries took entertainment from being a social thing that occurs outside of peoples homes (or shared through visiting each others homes) into a compartmentalised thing in the house. The things outside still exist, but they exist in far fewer forms and far less variety than previously, meaning that there are fewer ways for people to discover one another and there's much less "come round my house" where closer bonding occurs outside of a public setting.

Everyone here is focusing on the "men are the problem" issue and not on the fact this is a systemic issue that has grown as a result of modern society and amenities. It even exists in far earlier forms in global south countries because these forms of entertainment have not yet taken over communities due to lower levels of accessibility.

dating is still oriented towards getting a woman to like you over anything else, some guys just don't have a personality and body that sells well. That's literally it, everything else on this thread is waffling.

varies dramatically on a case by case basis

I think a lot of it is guys that don't put themselves out there (I do this too) because rejection and the vulnerability of admiting to someone you like them is authentically very scary

I think this is exacerbated by the fact a lot of guys are taught what not to do that certain behaviours are creepy which is good, but there is a lacking part which is teaching what you should do instead

nobody owes you attention. be better. do more interesting things with your life. whatever you're doing isn't working so do something else.

and above all, the most important piece of advice: if your first instinct upon rejection or things not working out how you had in your head is to lash out and start yelling or saying abusive things then you aren't fit to be in human society yet. kill that instinct by whatever means necessary. chill the fuck out.

I think this question also stems from the prevailing notion at a societal level that love/sex is finite and one is “incomplete” without it

I can't speak for other guys, but as somebody who skews younger, I find [as a former(...?) potential love interest told me] that I'm not really aware of boundaries and just go on and on about stuff I like, not particularly caring whether or not the women I'm talking to are actually interested. Most often they're annoyed.

If we all could take better care of each other on the community level then this wouldn't be that much of an issue.