This is gonna piss some people (men) off, I can already tell...

This is an excellent point and I think it demonstrates really well what people mean by "all men"

Even tho I love men as much as the next straight girl...bear for me, please

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[–] 13 points 59 minutes ago* (1 child)

You know posts like this annoy the hell out of me because people with this mindset put identity before character, and I really hate when that is somebody's list of priorities.

Before coming out as trans, people ditched me when I was mentally unwell. I'd done more than enough to prove the kind of character I have, but say one stupid blanket statement about women in a severe depressive episode, and people treat me as a dangerous man. This despite the fact that I've been open about how the women in my life to that point had either abused me, severely betrayed my trust, or both.

Then I come out as trans and suddenly now the full context of what happened then is understood by others? It's frustrating as hell and makes me feel extremely tokenised. Like wow guys, feels fantastic that I'm being judged by how I identify and not by the merit of my actions or the circumstances I've grown from.

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  • [–] 5 points 28 minutes ago

    You know posts like this annoy the hell out of me because people with this mindset put identity before character, and I really hate when that is somebody’s list of priorities.

    I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately you can't make sweeping generalizations and perpetuate a negative stereotype if you put character ahead of identity.

    BTW I'm sorry that you had a rough time. It's not morally correct nor fair.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 hour ago (4 children)

    it isnt all men bc they would or wouldnt do something. its all men bc if they chose to do something or avoid doing something as the post states, they wouldnt be held accountable in any meaningful way by anyone. they might get raise, promotions, whatever for such behavior more often than accountability.

    the reason its not all women isnt bc women cant do bad things. the reason is who gets away with it or gets advantages for it

    statements like these arent a competition of what gender or group can have the most bad people. its who society allows the most to be bad

    ik it makes people feel attacked to hear such statements like "all men". but against a group that is advantaged by society, its hard for us minorities to really hurt them using these statements. and it makes us be weary and remember to be weary around men. again not bc all men are all bad, but because if they are, there's nothing to be done about it. all we can do in an oppressed society is remember to be weary

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 1 hour ago (2 children)

    This is...a much better way of putting it than I did, with this meme. Honestly this whole post was such a mistake. But...thanks for that. I agree with you ❤️

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  • [–] 9 points 1 hour ago (1 child)

    No, the post wasn't a mistake. Things like this need to be talked about, even if we don't agree 100% with how it's phrased. Only through dialogue can new opinions be formed.

    And I get why you say stuff... I can't help that it hits the wrong way for me, even though I totally agree with your base point.

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  • [–] 37 points 2 hours ago (10 children)

    This kind of talk literally harms non-passing trans people and causes us to be excluded from LGBT spaces we should be welcome in.

    Like I spent all of college desperately wanting queer friends and not being able to make any because people perceived me as a threat because I looked too masculine.

    Not everyone misandry hurts is a man. But also, men are people and we shouldn't be hurting them.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 hour ago (6 children)

    Passing trans people, too. People will ask ‘why do trans men leave the community??’ and then treat us as inherently predatory and dangerous for our appearance and identity, when many of us have experienced the exact same sexual harassment and abuse we’re being suspected of for the crime of existing. (Which doesn’t feel very distinct from straight up transphobia when you’re on the receiving end of it!)

    I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water here, I know firsthand there are serious problems with rape culture and misogyny. I don’t want people to not speak up about it. Framing everyone with a male identity as inherently predatory instead of acknowledging it as a cultural problem just also hurts people, and I’m not convinced it does anything to change people who aren’t already on your side.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 hour ago (5 children)

    Framing everyone with a male identity as inherently predatory instead of acknowledging it as a cultural problem just also hurts people, and I’m not convinced it does anything to change people who aren’t already on your side.

    Framing the "all men" phrase by pointing out it's about the men who see other men do these things and not speak up or push back is the acknowledgement of the cultural problem imo.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 hour ago (3 children)

    I think that’s a fair analysis of it, but my experience is most people don’t seem to really internalize that part of it. Just man = bad, which is really fucking rough if you are freshly out and trying to come to terms with your own identity as a man without hating yourself even more than society tells you should for being trans.

    This may just be a niche of a niche problem within the queer community rather than an issue with the phrase as a whole, it’s just a consistent problem I’ve run up against and I’m not sure there’s a tidy solution for it.

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  • [–] 6 points 57 minutes ago (2 children)

    I feel you on the man = bad issue, I really do. I've got a young son that is entering a phase where subtlety around this subject is a must because I don't want him to internalize all men are bad.

    For what it's worth, the women I speak with about this absolutely understand and can delve into detail why it isn't "all men". Even here in this discussion thread, there's a lot of nuance. It's just that the imbalance between the genders is so vast when it comes to sexual assault and rape that it feels dismissive when men say their feelings are hurt because the conversation is about men standing up to other men to protect others.

    The goal isn't to hurt men's feelings. It's to push them to action to help reduce our rape culture. Work with us to reduce the amount of violence against women that is perpetuated by the actual bad men.

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  • [–] 5 points 48 minutes ago (1 child)

    For sure, I absolutely get and support that full stop. Trans men just often get caught in the discourse (if we’re not ‘choosing’ to be men to escape misogyny then we’re sexists with unconditional male privilege in all aspects of our life, which is something I wish my doctors believed lol), and people are kind of uncomfortable with accepting that many of us have been targets and victims of misogyny while also being men. It’s a fucking mess and it feels like fighting uphill in the mud to try to bring it up without upsetting multiple groups of people (including some trans men!) and just making the situation worse. And that’s basically been my experience for the past 15+ years of transition.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 hour ago

    Generalizing is a bad idea most of the time. Hatred hurts everyone. That being said, people are being driven that far because women are still, to this day, dismissed and laughed at about our fear of men. The manosphere is making violence and abuse against women explode. Call out generalizing and misandry, absolutely, but also believe women and don't dismiss them.

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  • I'm sorry that's been your experience.

    I really don't know if it's healthy to reduce issues because it may indirectly affect others. I wouldn't attribute that to misandry more than I would transphobia.

    (just to note though I'm aware that I'm not particularly masculine, so that may influence my experience)

    In my experience as a (I think?) non-passing transfem, girls (my age that is) have been the nicest to me and are pretty much the only group of people who by in large gender me correctly first try, while guys (my age) honestly don't seem to have the slightest clue or are knowingly being transphobic.

    It sucks that depending on your circumstance people can turn out so transphobic toward you, and again I wish it weren't that way, but I think maybe my experience can convince you that it doesn't have to be like that. I'm almost certain girls are generally less comfortable around me than a more passing or cis girl, but at the same time I don't think it'd be fair to try and minimise the violence men (not trans women) by in large are responsible for. I feel less safe around guys, but that's not going to go away as long as this pattern exists.

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    [–] 5 points 47 minutes ago (2 children)
  • [–] 3 points 42 minutes ago (1 child)

    Very real conversation, very productive dialogue

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  • [–] 4 points 42 minutes ago (7 children)

    There is a large number of men that stand by when something is happening, or are the perpetrators of violence. I think the reason that men are offended is because it also paints over the men who are trying to be allies. If transfolk started using the phrase "all cis" to describe who is inflicting violence, it would be overwhelming cis people causing violence towards them. It's factually correct. It also wouldn't help framing themselves as a culture war issue.

    The issue isn't that its correct, it's the prevalent idea in online communities that "I ought to be right" without some sort of call to action or creation of community. If a person posting about any social issue, whether that be this or immigration rights, or black lives, is simply writing a post with no means for action behind it to simply drive home a point isn't benefitting their community, but stoking outrage to increase engagement on social media.

    By using "all men" rhetoric, not only are you alienating men that are sympathetic for the cause, but you're actively driving away men that are teetering on the edge.

    I understand how dire of an issue this is. If you really want to make change, stop posting culture war rhetoric and start promoting and volunteering locally. Start to make an actual change instead of getting random men angry online.

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    [–] 13 points 1 hour ago (6 children)

    This is a straw-all-men argument. I am a man. I have routinely stood up for women at parties when other men are being a problem. I have called it out, cut offenders out of my social groups, given safe rides home, and made it clear I would not tolerate predatory behaviour. I believe a meaningful percentage of men would do the same.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 1 hour ago*

    I believe a meaningful percentage of men would do the same

    I have news for you...
    7 of them commited the atrocity. 50 knew about it and said nothing, didn't even lift a finger to try and stop the horrible things going on just a short distance away.

    What "meaningful percentage of men" are you referring to?

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    [–] 27 points 2 hours ago (11 children)

    As a parent, it would depend on if I know the parents and kids, not the sexes. Just saying...

    So no, not always a man. Some girls can be pretty mean...

    The advantage of the bear is predictability, but dead is dead.

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  • [–] 2 points 50 minutes ago (6 children)

    some girls can be pretty mean

    Right right, "I know men gang rape, but have you seen women make fun of someone's dress and call her fat to the cool guys she wants to meet?"

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  • [–] 6 points 45 minutes ago (5 children)

    See, downplaying the intent. Predictable. This is why men don't talk about shit. Because all men, right.

    Can all attacks and abuses be bad, or are we comparing and saying only the worse ones are legit? Jesus, the gatekeeping. This is why mental abuse on any sex is still stigmatized, because it's "not as bad as physical". Fuck that.

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    [–] 11 points 1 hour ago (6 children)

    If you were at a party with 20 girls and three of them start insulting the appearance of another would you step in? Exactly. All humans.

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  • [–] [S] 8 points 1 hour ago (3 children)

    Yes, but it's not like you're gonna believe me anyway. I've been bullied as a child. I don't stand for this stuff.

    Also, all suffering, both physical and mental is bad, but comparing insulting someone's appearance to physical and sexual assault, murder and mutilation seems a bit asinine.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 hour ago

    Goddess bless you, Miisha <3

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