This is gonna piss some people (men) off, I can already tell...

This is an excellent point and I think it demonstrates really well what people mean by "all men"

Even tho I love men as much as the next straight girl...bear for me, please

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[–] 19 points 6 hours ago (16 children)

Framing everyone with a male identity as inherently predatory instead of acknowledging it as a cultural problem just also hurts people, and I’m not convinced it does anything to change people who aren’t already on your side.

Framing the "all men" phrase by pointing out it's about the men who see other men do these things and not speak up or push back is the acknowledgement of the cultural problem imo.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 hour ago (7 children)

    Yeah, and not all men look at these things and do nothing.

    Also, I'd never let my daughter (if I'd ever had one) go to a party like that, no matter if there are only women or if there are also men (or only men) on the site. Simply, parties are one of the worst environments where a minor can ever be. If she is of legal age, then it would be her problem, but as long as I could protect her, then I would.

    The problem is, that kind of rhetoric of "men are inherently bad and evil", is gender esencialism and sexism, and also implies, implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) that "women are inherently pure and good", and thus it's bad and damaging to men, women and other genders alike. Evil and goodness know no genders, sexes or any other kind of distinctions. Any people can be good as just as any people can be evil.

    Making these kinds of claims only generates division, polarization and, more or les justifiably, makes more men to be reactionary as it makes them feel (justifiably) freely attacked with almost no reason and thus that isolates and alienated.

    Please, people, don't be such a dickhead to imply that someone is bad just because he's a man, that's as bad, bigoted and discriminatory as telling the same to a women. Some women are bad, some women won't do nothing when a bad women does something bad, and yet not all women are like that, and the same should be applied to men. Don't be irrational.

    Anyway, I'm with you in that this is a inherently cultural problem, but it shouldn't be solved by creating more division with inflamatory comments.

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  • [–] 1 point 44 minutes ago (6 children)

    Making these kinds of claims only generates division, polarization and, more or les justifiably, makes more men to be reactionary as it makes them feel (justifiably) freely attacked with almost no reason and thus that isolates and alienated.

    I always have wondered why it makes more sense to attack people who are bringing up the issue of rape culture instead of empathizing and joining in against those types of men who rape.

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  • [–] 1 point 26 minutes ago* (5 children)

    We're talking about two issues here. Kangae makes a point to say, this isn't constructive, at-best it's sexist- and he's right. That can be true and men can be rapists, and people can determine for themselves if OP is acting in good faith and react accordingly. A post like this might bring one man over to your side, but it's pushing away another too. Strictly speaking it's actually antithetical to your overall goals/wishes, but appears to appease your desires to be correct on the internet. Both sides owe it to the issue to be more stringent with their camps, but each side makes a lot of content and money dancing around the issue without touching it. Do you actually like being a persona on the internet? I don't really get you, but I don't really have too either. Also this is Lemmy, so like, no rapists are around to hear this anyway. They're on twitter.

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  • [–] 1 point 19 minutes ago (4 children)

    Also this is Lemmy, so like, no rapists are around to hear this anyway.

    You would be surprised.

    Strictly speaking it’s actually antithetical to your overall goals/wishes, but appears to appease your desires to be correct on the internet

    Being really presumptuous about what my goals and desires are here tbh. Bordering on personal attacks.

    My goals talking about these issues on Lemmy is to bring awareness to a broadly male audience that is oftentimes blind to some of these hard truths that people live with daily. This place can be startingly misogynistic with not much pushback. It can be very alienating to women and minorities that join here. So I aim to make this place more diverse and to be outspoken about feminism so that others may feel more comfortable building the Fediverse up.

    My comment that you replied to is pretty benign and I was just wondering out loud.

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  • [–] 1 point 15 minutes ago (3 children)

    Happy I could get you to consider things.

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  • [–] 24 points 6 hours ago (5 children)

    I think that’s a fair analysis of it, but my experience is most people don’t seem to really internalize that part of it. Just man = bad, which is really fucking rough if you are freshly out and trying to come to terms with your own identity as a man without hating yourself even more than society tells you should for being trans.

    This may just be a niche of a niche problem within the queer community rather than an issue with the phrase as a whole, it’s just a consistent problem I’ve run up against and I’m not sure there’s a tidy solution for it.

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  • [–] 15 points 6 hours ago (4 children)

    I feel you on the man = bad issue, I really do. I've got a young son that is entering a phase where subtlety around this subject is a must because I don't want him to internalize all men are bad.

    For what it's worth, the women I speak with about this absolutely understand and can delve into detail why it isn't "all men". Even here in this discussion thread, there's a lot of nuance. It's just that the imbalance between the genders is so vast when it comes to sexual assault and rape that it feels dismissive when men say their feelings are hurt because the conversation is about men standing up to other men to protect others.

    The goal isn't to hurt men's feelings. It's to push them to action to help reduce our rape culture. Work with us to reduce the amount of violence against women that is perpetuated by the actual bad men.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 hours ago (3 children)

    For sure, I absolutely get and support that full stop. Trans men just often get caught in the discourse (if we’re not ‘choosing’ to be men to escape misogyny then we’re sexists with unconditional male privilege in all aspects of our life, which is something I wish my doctors believed lol), and people are kind of uncomfortable with accepting that many of us have been targets and victims of misogyny while also being men. It’s a fucking mess and it feels like fighting uphill in the mud to try to bring it up without upsetting multiple groups of people (including some trans men!) and just making the situation worse. And that’s basically been my experience for the past 15+ years of transition.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 hours ago (1 child)

    I can tell you that even as a cis man I have had to deal with the patriarchy/misogyny trying to pigeonhole me. I won’t pretend like it’s even close to what women or trans men deal with, but there is a ton of policing around masculinity.

    I think a big reason why men like sports so much is it’s one of the few socially permissible areas for them to show any emotions outside of anger.

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  • Yeah, I get that, too.

    As a cis man that constantly tries to be a better person and that has already worked a lot on toxic masculinity issues (trust me, my mindsed was so fucked up towards women and feminism when I was like 12 years old or so 💀) and all that, is really hard to live up with people 24/7 trying to make me feel bad and the cause of all of world's evils just because I'm a cis man, and when I call that on them, then they do that rhetoric move where "if you're defending yourself, then you're giving me reason", while not understanding how do live like that feels. Fortunately they're not a majority, but are really noisy (and most of them are TERFs, too, and HVW, suspicious).

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