This is gonna piss some people (men) off, I can already tell...

This is an excellent point and I think it demonstrates really well what people mean by "all men"

Even tho I love men as much as the next straight girl...bear for me, please

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[–] 109 points 12 hours ago (28 children)

This kind of talk literally harms non-passing trans people and causes us to be excluded from LGBT spaces we should be welcome in.

Like I spent all of college desperately wanting queer friends and not being able to make any because people perceived me as a threat because I looked too masculine.

Not everyone misandry hurts is a man. But also, men are people and we shouldn't be hurting them.

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  • [–] 44 points 11 hours ago (23 children)

    Passing trans people, too. People will ask ‘why do trans men leave the community??’ and then treat us as inherently predatory and dangerous for our appearance and identity, when many of us have experienced the exact same sexual harassment and abuse we’re being suspected of for the crime of existing. (Which doesn’t feel very distinct from straight up transphobia when you’re on the receiving end of it!)

    I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water here, I know firsthand there are serious problems with rape culture and misogyny. I don’t want people to not speak up about it. Framing everyone with a male identity as inherently predatory instead of acknowledging it as a cultural problem just also hurts people, and I’m not convinced it does anything to change people who aren’t already on your side.

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  • [–] 19 points 11 hours ago (22 children)

    Framing everyone with a male identity as inherently predatory instead of acknowledging it as a cultural problem just also hurts people, and I’m not convinced it does anything to change people who aren’t already on your side.

    Framing the "all men" phrase by pointing out it's about the men who see other men do these things and not speak up or push back is the acknowledgement of the cultural problem imo.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 hours ago (13 children)

    Yeah, and not all men look at these things and do nothing.

    Also, I'd never let my daughter (if I'd ever had one) go to a party like that, no matter if there are only women or if there are also men (or only men) on the site. Simply, parties are one of the worst environments where a minor can ever be. If she is of legal age, then it would be her problem, but as long as I could protect her, then I would.

    The problem is, that kind of rhetoric of "men are inherently bad and evil", is gender esencialism and sexism, and also implies, implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) that "women are inherently pure and good", and thus it's bad and damaging to men, women and other genders alike. Evil and goodness know no genders, sexes or any other kind of distinctions. Any people can be good as just as any people can be evil.

    Making these kinds of claims only generates division, polarization and, more or les justifiably, makes more men to be reactionary as it makes them feel (justifiably) freely attacked with almost no reason and thus that isolates and alienated.

    Please, people, don't be such a dickhead to imply that someone is bad just because he's a man, that's as bad, bigoted and discriminatory as telling the same to a women. Some women are bad, some women won't do nothing when a bad women does something bad, and yet not all women are like that, and the same should be applied to men. Don't be irrational.

    Anyway, I'm with you in that this is a inherently cultural problem, but it shouldn't be solved by creating more division with inflamatory comments.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 hours ago (12 children)

    Making these kinds of claims only generates division, polarization and, more or les justifiably, makes more men to be reactionary as it makes them feel (justifiably) freely attacked with almost no reason and thus that isolates and alienated.

    I always have wondered why it makes more sense to attack people who are bringing up the issue of rape culture instead of empathizing and joining in against those types of men who rape.

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  • Yeah, I know that; the point is, generalizing or attacking people that aren't responsible or can't even do anything about that, that's what's counterproductive.

    I'm with you in that the rape culture should be seriously addressed; but this is not the way. We shouldn't be shooting far away from the target, is my point. The target are the rapists and the people that don't support them, not the innocent. And the problem is that generalizing too broadly, you're attacking the innocent along with the culpritz even if you don't initially intend to. Also, this kind of gender/sex war bs is something really sexist and bigoted to do.

    However, you got a point in that we shouldn't be empathizing with the ones that rape or support rapists, but when I said that it "makes more men to be reactionary as it makes them feel (justifiably) freely attacked with almost no reason and thus that isolates and alienated", I meant, innocent men. That's how polarization and radicalization works.

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  • [–] -1 points 5 hours ago* (10 children)

    We're talking about two issues here. Kangae makes a point to say, this isn't constructive, at-best it's sexist- and he's right. That can be true and men can be rapists, and people can determine for themselves if OP is acting in good faith and react accordingly. A post like this might bring one man over to your side, but it's pushing away another too. Strictly speaking it's actually antithetical to your overall goals/wishes, but appears to appease your desires to be correct on the internet. Both sides owe it to the issue to be more stringent with their camps, but each side makes a lot of content and money dancing around the issue without touching it. Do you actually like being a persona on the internet? I don't really get you, but I don't really have too either. Also this is Lemmy, so like, no rapists are around to hear this anyway. They're on twitter.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 hours ago (8 children)

    Also this is Lemmy, so like, no rapists are around to hear this anyway.

    You would be surprised.

    Strictly speaking it’s actually antithetical to your overall goals/wishes, but appears to appease your desires to be correct on the internet

    Being really presumptuous about what my goals and desires are here tbh. Bordering on personal attacks.

    My goals talking about these issues on Lemmy is to bring awareness to a broadly male audience that is oftentimes blind to some of these hard truths that people live with daily. This place can be startingly misogynistic with not much pushback. It can be very alienating to women and minorities that join here. So I aim to make this place more diverse and to be outspoken about feminism so that others may feel more comfortable building the Fediverse up.

    My comment that you replied to is pretty benign and I was just wondering out loud.

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  • [–] 0 points 5 hours ago (7 children)

    Happy I could get you to consider things.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 hours ago (6 children)
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  • [–] 2 points 5 hours ago (4 children)

    You are really presumptuous hahaha

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  • [–] -1 points 5 hours ago (2 children)
  • [–] 31 points 11 hours ago (5 children)

    I think that’s a fair analysis of it, but my experience is most people don’t seem to really internalize that part of it. Just man = bad, which is really fucking rough if you are freshly out and trying to come to terms with your own identity as a man without hating yourself even more than society tells you should for being trans.

    This may just be a niche of a niche problem within the queer community rather than an issue with the phrase as a whole, it’s just a consistent problem I’ve run up against and I’m not sure there’s a tidy solution for it.

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  • [–] 19 points 11 hours ago (4 children)

    I feel you on the man = bad issue, I really do. I've got a young son that is entering a phase where subtlety around this subject is a must because I don't want him to internalize all men are bad.

    For what it's worth, the women I speak with about this absolutely understand and can delve into detail why it isn't "all men". Even here in this discussion thread, there's a lot of nuance. It's just that the imbalance between the genders is so vast when it comes to sexual assault and rape that it feels dismissive when men say their feelings are hurt because the conversation is about men standing up to other men to protect others.

    The goal isn't to hurt men's feelings. It's to push them to action to help reduce our rape culture. Work with us to reduce the amount of violence against women that is perpetuated by the actual bad men.

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  • [–] 11 points 11 hours ago (3 children)

    For sure, I absolutely get and support that full stop. Trans men just often get caught in the discourse (if we’re not ‘choosing’ to be men to escape misogyny then we’re sexists with unconditional male privilege in all aspects of our life, which is something I wish my doctors believed lol), and people are kind of uncomfortable with accepting that many of us have been targets and victims of misogyny while also being men. It’s a fucking mess and it feels like fighting uphill in the mud to try to bring it up without upsetting multiple groups of people (including some trans men!) and just making the situation worse. And that’s basically been my experience for the past 15+ years of transition.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 hours ago (1 child)

    I can tell you that even as a cis man I have had to deal with the patriarchy/misogyny trying to pigeonhole me. I won’t pretend like it’s even close to what women or trans men deal with, but there is a ton of policing around masculinity.

    I think a big reason why men like sports so much is it’s one of the few socially permissible areas for them to show any emotions outside of anger.

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  • Yeah, I get that, too.

    As a cis man that constantly tries to be a better person and that has already worked a lot on toxic masculinity issues (trust me, my mindsed was so fucked up towards women and feminism when I was like 12 years old or so 💀) and all that, is really hard to live up with people 24/7 trying to make me feel bad and the cause of all of world's evils just because I'm a cis man, and when I call that on them, then they do that rhetoric move where "if you're defending yourself, then you're giving me reason", while not understanding how do live like that feels. Fortunately they're not a majority, but are really noisy (and most of them are TERFs, too, and HVW, suspicious).

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  • [–] 5 points 7 hours ago

    totally agree and have ti remind my partner's daughter of the dangers of absolutism because there was a time where what she says would be an attack against me. i use it to explain how absolutism leaves no room for a nonbinary state. it either is 100% or 0%. no wigfgle room. two polarized sides of the coin. and the danger with "all coins" is that there isnt a transitory or neutral ground foe ideas to be heard, entertained, and not echo chambered. and anyone who tries to get forced to the other side, where they honestly might face more harm. so absolutism further divides, and does nothing to repair and repect that differences exist, should be accounted for and respected. and yes, i would respect the sex offender who might live down my street. why? because i want them to have a safe area for them, away from me and my family. i want them to feel like humanity wont abandon them and that they have room to grow. so yes "all men" deserve the same attention and respect, even the selecr few poopy ones because otherwise "no man" will feel they can speak up at a party without being chastised by the whole and forced to the other side of a binary coin that sees them as a monster like they see "all men".

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  • [–] 15 points 11 hours ago

    Generalizing is a bad idea most of the time. Hatred hurts everyone. That being said, people are being driven that far because women are still, to this day, dismissed and laughed at about our fear of men. The manosphere is making violence and abuse against women explode. Call out generalizing and misandry, absolutely, but also believe women and don't dismiss them.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 hours ago

    I'm sorry that's been your experience.

    I really don't know if it's healthy to reduce issues because it may indirectly affect others. I wouldn't attribute that to misandry more than I would transphobia.

    (just to note though I'm aware that I'm not particularly masculine, so that may influence my experience)

    In my experience as a (I think?) non-passing transfem, girls (my age that is) have been the nicest to me and are pretty much the only group of people who by in large gender me correctly first try, while guys (my age) honestly don't seem to have the slightest clue or are knowingly being transphobic.

    It sucks that depending on your circumstance people can turn out so transphobic toward you, and again I wish it weren't that way, but I think maybe my experience can convince you that it doesn't have to be like that. I'm almost certain girls are generally less comfortable around me than a more passing or cis girl, but at the same time I don't think it'd be fair to try and minimise the violence men (not trans women) by in large are responsible for. I feel less safe around guys, but that's not going to go away as long as this pattern exists.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 12 hours ago

    I don't think this is hurting men, but I sure as shit know that lots of men hurt women, all the time. Those girls from Cornell and more recently Chicago are great examples. Just because those two cases have come up now doesn't mean it's not happening, it just means these two in particular got reported, which I think is great. The vast majority of cases isn't reported.

    I'm sorry for your exclusion. But I don't honestly think this is a misandry issue, I think this is a transphobia issue. You are a woman, you always have been, always will be. Men dressing up as women to "get into women's spaces easier" is a thing I really don't believe happens. Neither clothing nor signs will stop a man from committing something terrible.

    The patriarchy hurts us all and I just wish it would crumble already. I'm sorry you had such an experience.

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