askchapo

Statistically? Yes.

Go ahead and don't hate the Israelis who take a principled stand against the bigotry, colonialism and apartheid and are actively fighting their state. There are about three or four of them, but you have my full consent

And given the recent uptick in “Turtle Island” discourse, it seems like a fair number of leftists believe my ancestors shouldn’t have been allowed to resettle in the US either

This strikes me as extremely bad faith. Nobody is advocating evicting anyone or deporting anyone. You need to reframe this for me to engage in any way in good faith.

Unironically, read Settlers.

It has nothing to do with "the Jews" and everything to do with racist murdering fanatics and thieves.

This letter signed by Einstien almost 80 years ago. Still very much and worse today. I believe Einstien and this groups predictions were correct and modern is a fascist state that must be resisted.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/einstein/1948/12/02.htm

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

....

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.

During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.

The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.

The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

yes it is read fucking settlers

exception of cultural Zionism

All forms of Zionism is racism as Zionism itself is settler colonial ideology. Instead of confronting Europe's antisemitism deep within its core, Zionism posits that all Jews must be cowards and submit to the same settler-colonial worldview of statecraft. In attempting to manufacture an arbitrary Jewish nationality, Zionism erases the uniqueness of the diaspora and the struggles of individual diaspora communities. Please notice that Zionism only gets popular when Jewish corpses get piled up, it was never about justice.

morally better people for choosing the US over Ottoman-era Palestine

They are, Zionism in its early stages was a terrorist organization that would commit attacks on the local Palestinian population. Zionism only succeeded with the European Holocaust. The US is a infinitely better option than joining Jewish proto-ISIS.

But I also don't think that every Jewish person who moved to Palestine was a bad person for doing that,

Intersectionality, these Jews are still Europeans who have no right to settle on the land, they still internalize their European worldview of settler subjugation and domination. Moving to the US would still be a better option than joining in a soon genocidal fascist replica of the same terror that forced them to flee. Why do Palestinians have to suffer for the actions of European antisemites? The Zionist is the European antisemite.

Of course, you're partially correct, Israelis are not the problem, they are a symptom of settler-colonialism, racism, and capitalism. But bombing Israelis and making them fear for their lives is the only language a settler will understand. All Palestinian/Arab violence against the State of Israel is in self-defense.

And given the recent uptick in “Turtle Island” discourse, it seems like a fair number of leftists believe my ancestors shouldn’t have been allowed to resettle in the US either.

Huh?

Yes and given the "turtle island" bullshit you should feel bad for asking.

If anyone displaces and kills Palestinians, I'm gonna hate them, if anyone even tries to justify the displacement and murder of Palestinians I'm gonna hate them

Not all Israelis fall under that category, but most do, because Zionism at it's core (including cultural zionism) cannot conceptualize Palestinians as human beings of equal standing, that would defeat the whole purpose of the ideology which is to nihilistically role-play as some Iron Age kingdom the Romans dismantled, but conceptualized under a 19th-20th century fascist white supremacist framework, the ideology makes no sense and can't function if Palestinians aren't dehumanized

And nobody cares what some proto-zionist did a 150 years ago, people are horrified by the genocide being carried out by zionists TODAY and it has to be defeated like any other form of fascism

it seems like a fair number of leftists believe my ancestors shouldn’t have been allowed to resettle in the US either.)

Also, what does this even mean?

The fashionable posture on the left to take towards Israeli Jews recently has basically been a combination of glibness and vitriolic hatred, often reaching the point of wishing death upon them (examples: 1 2).

This is not true and neither of your links even begin to support that. I can tell how untrue it is by how you were unable to find any actual evidence of it. That Hexbear thread has absolutely no "wishing death upon Jews" in it. And I don't even know what you are getting at with that Tweet.

Just awful for you to attempt that.

It's mostly the political entity of Israel that we hate and the effect this has had on the people, and not each individual settler but the act of inhabiting another people's land.

There's a real Nazi germany hive mind going on there so it's pretty hard to sympathize with them right now generally, but that doesn't mean that there are no people in Israel who are against all this and believe that Palestinians should be free.

Sadly for them though because of everything Israel has been historically, everyone who hates imperialism will very justifiably cheer on as the genocide state is torn apart piece by piece when it's time for it to reap what it has sown. They should either gtfo (which should be much easier compared to a Palestinian who is locked in the target zone), or join the resistance and fight against their own state

Do you hate German nazis of 1930-1940s? Would you have hated them if you lived back then?
If your answer is 'yes' to either of those questions, then not hating genocidal Pissraelis (as opposed to the people who do not join the Pissraeli SS force and who do not otherwise take action to harm Palestinians) is hypocritical.

You're average Israeli is more or less irrelevant. Material interests fuel bourgeoisie governments, not public support. Hating individual Israeli citizens doesn't accomplish anything one way or another in terms of resisting genocide.

Hey quick question, if the Israelis weren't on indigenous land using billions of dollars to do a genocide would people still feel violence is appropriate? I abhor violence, but I could never see someone backed into a corner by violent, cackling racists with guns having seen their friends & family butchered and tell them to turn the other cheek. I could never see the Yemeni forces intervene in a scared teenager's surefire demise, tell them "you are not alone," and think they're the villains. It's a grizzly, heartbreaking situation, but a riot is the language of the unheard. It is on the Zionists, the settlers, to cease the violence, not the other way around. Every bit of violence against an illegal occupation is legal as far as international law is concerned. It's the finding out part of fucking around and finding out.

Yeah lmao, fuck every single Isntraeli. They're a nation of :

murderers

and the best among them are thieves.

They need to get the fuck off indigenous land 😘

Edit: put the CW: SA behind a spoiler

I think it would be perverse to hate israelis who genuinely want a democratic nation that doesn't need to be called israel, and want to have equality with the actual indigenous people of the land. That is an incredibly, vanishingly small portion of the population, so the odds are that any Israeli who gets got in some way held disgusting, fascist beliefs and would have clapped and celebrated in glee at the death of a Palestinian child. I don't think Zionists should be treated the way that they treat Palestinians, but I'm not going to shed any tears if they are.

idk if this requires a cw since the thread subject is genocide but i am about to discuss what it entails psychologically.

you guys laser focus on the small proportion of the israeli population that is engaged in activism against zionism

have you actually looked at the photos of the children who have been half shredded? that's nothing. even more than the ukrainians, israelis look at videos of people being tortured constantly, and they enjoy it. if you don't hate them, you're just not preparing yourself to deal with the outflow of dehumanization and hatred of arabs and muslims that will come out of this. i still more concern for antisemitism. get real. it has never been easier for people to watch videos of people in southeast asia or the middle east to be tortured to death. and they love it. they think it shows them "the real world"

I IRL met two Israelis that avoided conscription and are arguably pretty OK. The rest have all been massive fuckheads. Like pushy, ignoring boundaries, etc. I run into Israelis now and then and they're some of my least favourite people. I'm not even afraid of looking racist, most Israelis are personally pretty fucking shitty.

Like any settler country, the only decent people you're gonna find are those that fully reject it.

Fuck Israelis for engaging in a genocidal settler project to exterminate Palestinians, and fuck my ancestors for engaging in a genocidal settler project to exterminate indigenous North Americans.

And fuck me for benefiting from it. /gen

Family members can be bad people, it's not hard to criticize them. If your family had gone to Israel they absolutely would deserve the criticism.

I mean you don’t NEED to hate anyone, especially based solely on their birthplace or first language.

But in a just future for all inhabitants of Palestine, “Israeli” identity would cease to be valid as it is based on the political supremacy of Jews-defined-racially over all others (indigenous or not) within the region.

To be Israeli in Palestine would probably come to resemble being Quebecois in Canada or Mormon in the US- a distinct ethnic or religious group that maintains some regional political power, but isn’t enshrined as a dominant minority in an apartheid nation.

I think this is a matter of level of abstraction. It is quite possible to have a situation where individual oppressors (members of an oppressing group) do not personally deserve whatever violence, suppression, or appropriation of land and resources that is necessary for liberation. To effectively fight oppression we have to look beyond individual morality, and the results we get are not fully reducible back to a way to look at individual people.

This point of view, however, is unstable in our deeply individualist society, especially for any mass movement. Any possible movement for Palestinian liberation will have some misguided personal hatred of Israelis, beyond them being part of the oppressor, which has to be tolerated to a degree. This makes it especially critical to fight any antisemitism within the movement, even when it results in serious weaknesses.

don't make the mistake of thinking you're reaching an understanding with liberal zionists who acknowledge the punishment is collective and disproportionate, even for what they have tortured people into falsely confessing.

there is nothing behind their eyes that will relate to you. they think you're a worthless chump

If ye ask me seriously, if it weren't for the present Gazan genocide that they're trying to commit and their especially inflated geopolitical power and position in the Middle East,

I'd say dislike them as much as any settler-state like America and Australia, for their inherent origins in settler-colonialism

In fact, if there was a way, it'd be more better to have them transport themselves to Australia and fuck the other white settlers over instead... if not return back to their ethnic homelands of years ago, in Europe, Africa, and Arab countries (though the latter's a bit more complicated)

Hmmm... Well, when my dad died when I was a preteen, my family considered moving to Occupied Turtle Island. And we can ask ourselves: what would've happened if my family actually did move in with my maternal grandparents, or with my cousins, or whatever else might've happened if we crossed the sea?

Well, the person who was me before we crossed the sea, would simply cease to be me after that point. Now she would share some childhood memories with me, albeit corrupted or forgotten in notably different ways; she might have a similar face and a similar voice and the same first languages, albeit with different mannerisms and idiolects. But aside from that she would have gone to different schools and met different people; she would have different favorite foods and drinks and different interests and fashion; she would've pursued a different education and a different career, and she'd have a different name and different problems in life; most things about her would indeed be unrecognizable compared to the me that actually exists.

Which is to say that there's a pretty decent chance that if I ever got to meet let's call her Maggie, that I would look at her sympathetically, this wounded bird who went through something no child should ever have to go through, and suddenly found herself in another country because of it... And then I would hate her fucking guts. Now I couldn't fault Maggie for ending up in an occupation zone, nor could I necessarily fault her mother for making such a difficult decision with the knowledge that she had; but if Maggie ended up a smug-ass lib not resisting but rather promoting the occupation of the Seven Council Fires, and if she generally came to be the antithesis of everything that the extant me believes and values — then I would not care that she was genetically my identical twin, because she'd still be a fucking asshole.

Do you think that if your great-grandparents had gotten the chance to meet "themselves" in that alternate timeline where they ended up in Palestine, that they'd also find little in common with "themselves"? Then how much would your great-grandparents' children have in common with their equivalents in that other timeline? And how about their children vs your parents? And then their children in turn vs yourself? Indeed, by the time we get to today, it would turn out that having ancestors who fled from the same persecution is much less meaningful a similarity than what the people alive today actually make of that history. And when the people alive today use that history to justify a colonial and fascist agenda, then you should revile them exactly as you should revile yourself if you had done the same thing.

Well, there’s nothing wrong with not hating all Israelis. I guess the question is, would you still have leftist views if your ancestors chose Palestine? The majority of Israelis support Israeli nationalism, and those who support a two state solution, nominally or not, do jack shit to actually make it happen. Of course, much of it is learned behavior, but… so what? Much of the bootlicking for capitalism, imperialism, and fascism is learned behavior. Not everyone who does it will stay a bad person forever, I’m sure most of here know, but if they happen to suffer while in the middle of being a bad person? It’s unfortunate they didn’t get a chance to redeem themselves, but not gonna shed a tear either.

Likewise, I wouldn’t be too upset if Native Americans or literally anyone from the global south hated all Americans and those who become Americans. Like even though “death to america” is an expression against the government, there are times where I am truly indifferent to the suffering of westerners and wish it happened more.

And even though I don’t consider myself American, I would still understand if they hated me because their communities are ignored and abused while I get to benefit from the suffering of the world. That’s not to say that you’re benefitting from zionism (we all benefit and/or contribute to it indirectly), but if I were an Israeli leftist, I would understand why people hate Israelis.

Were nazis bad for living in Germany during the 30s-40s? No

Nazis were bad for being nazis. And deserved to be either radically reeducated or shot.

That's it.

Kinda. This is gonna be super simplistic but like. To be good or moral or ethical or whatever you want to call it. It is not enough to love and support things that are good. You must hate and oppose things that are evil. If you are not capable of hating oppressors with the same conviction as the people who are oppressed, what are you even standing on? Do you think the parents of all the dead Palestinian kids have anything but hate for anyone and everything that claims the title of "Israeli"? Would you stand with them or not? Do you not tremble with indignation at the injustice, as Che said? Really think about whether or not you do.

This doesn't mean you necessarily have to go out and find Israeli nationals to harass and you don't have to send money to Hamas. But you do have to not go online and make weepy posts about "But but but what if they had really good reasons to be colonizers 🥺"

yes. there is no such thing as an innocent israeli, they are all combatants

Death to America

yes