LGBTQ+
All forms of queer news and culture. Nonsectarian and non-exclusionary.
See also this community's sister subs Feminism, Neurodivergence, Disability, and POC
Beehaw currently maintains an LGBTQ+ resource wiki, which is up to date as of July 10, 2023.
This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.
Not sure which post you're talking about, but in general, yeah. Any kind of excusing of transphobia is 100% not tolerated here. I'm not a mod of this particular community, but please use the report button if you see anything like this happening.
I did report it. The problem is many of these arguments come clothed in the fabric of politeness. Similar to how white nationalists have tried to persuade me by calling me "brother" and speaking kindly, it might not be immediately apparent to someone why these arguments are harmful. After all, the person is being "polite," and the person who responds appropriately often seems like the unhinged one.
It's by design.
return rant incoming:
i'm glad it's you saying this, and not me. i think it's important to say, but i cannot handle all the bullshit hot takes that i would have to deal with afterwards.
i cannot stand when people tell me to try to be nicer, say it in a gentler, more pleasing manner, try to be more considerate of others feelings, maybe try wearing some nice clothes or makeup so that i feel more confident. i do all of those things in my day to day life, and it works. that's kind of the problem. it's expected of me, a woman, to speak or act a certain way. if i behave in a way that is not matching ppls' invisible expectations of how a woman should behave, they get very uncomfortable with me. on the internet, it translates to ppl thinking it's their business to tell me what to do :) i am pretty sure that if i were to write this same post in a "feminine-sounding" way, the reaction would be different (IMO in a bad way).
it also pisses me off when i come across ppl who think of life as a game that needs to be won. the moment i show any amount of emotional or passionate speech, i lose - my words become invalidated because i am expressive, therefore i cannot control myself? i don't really get it. i think there's a good number of people on the internet who take pride in holding back their emotions. i guess public display of emotion is shameful for them? basically anytime i say anything passionate online, ppl think it's their duty to convince me that i'm wrong LOL
my family members are purposefully ignorant towards LGBTQ+ and i'm terrified that they'll say something hateful in public. for now, i'm trying my best to hate the behavior, not the human.
Thank you for making this post so we don't have to.
Transwomen are women. Transmen are men. Bi-sexual people are valid and shall not be erased.
We stand with our brothers and sisters.
I'd like to remind everyone that "bee kind" includes not accepting, normalizing, and ignoring transphobic opinions and beliefs. We're all together in this.
I'd like to remind you that you don't get to redefine words.
Having said that, I spent many hours having reasoned talks with *phobes and getting then to slowly see some light somewhere. Even if it's a glimmer, I think that's worth it. You don't get to tell me that I should yell at those people.
Inaction against intolerance is a form of action, is it not? "Bee kind" is not just a call to not be mean, it's a call to act in kindness.
I believe the poster is probably right in that it stirs more toward fostering acceptance rather than simply ignoring hate.
It's not compelled speech, per se—Beehaw users need to have an active role in order to make it the kind of place people want to bee.
I’d like to remind you that you don’t get to redefine words.
Yeah I don't think that's what happened and definitely didn't read it that way in the post.
I'm a non-binary person who used to be pretty transmedicalist, if not outright transphobic and especially enbyphobic. Part of what brought me around was a de-escalation in the anger around explaining trans issues. When I first became aware of issues around using pronouns and non-binary people in 2012-ish, there was a lot of fury and very little real explaining. Just people berating others over not asking everyone for their pronouns or not understanding things about trans people. I was too scared to ask questions because everyone seemed so ready to jump down others throats and it really soured me, to the point of hanging around hate sites. It wasn't the only thing that pushed me in that direction but it certainly didn't push me away from being hateful.
A good part of what helped me come around understand was de-escalation of the anger and a genuine effort to explain things slowly and without judgement. After a while, sites started putting out longer articles about the nuances of trans and non-binary identities, and after I finally broke away from the hate sites, reading those helped me finally get it. I understand some of the anger. I get mad too. But I know from experience that yelling doesn't help convert anyone.
The current climate of "discourse" in the US works against effective teaching. I do know what I'm talking about here; teaching emotionally charged subjects was my strength but it's nearly impossible to online these days.
I have no idea how you get out of this dynamic when it's become so deeply embedded in how things are done, just that for every person who manages to learn something amidst the shouting, another is driven further away from what you wish to teach. But this is where we are and what we have to work with.
This can be true along with the unfairness of putting the burden on the disadvantaged side. I don't know the answer. Perhaps there isn't one.
I've been in forums since the 90s, and if anything it seems to me like many people are more open to discourse now. I got called the f-slur so much back then. The reason it probably seemed better back then to non-LGBT+ people is that they were excluding and marginalizing us.
And if we welcome people like those I refer to in my post, we will be once again excluding and marginalizing LGBT+ people by creating a hostile space.
I don't think things have gotten worse. It's just that whenever we get the slightest step towards equity, bigots push back. The only solution I know is to make that impossible for them.
You say that
People need to be educated, and you're not going to change their minds by becoming hostile.
Is a bad take, but then your follow up explanation doesn't really go into detail about the sentiment behind this statement and reads completely off topic. Do you really think hostility is necessary to educate? Like when responding to an ignorant comment, are you yelling at them? As irrational as some phobics are, I agree you're not going to change their minds by flying off the handle and yelling at them or using hostile language. Not only do many people of all opinions respond poorly to that, the ones making bad faith arguments want you to get pissed and make you look irrational. Don't fucking let them.
your follow up explanation doesn’t really go into detail about the sentiment behind this statement and reads completely off topic
Are you misinterpreting my post? These are not arguments said by me -- these are arguments that come from bad-faith actors who are polluting what are supposed to be welcoming forums by putting the onus on us to behave politely when they are coming into threads with their nonsensical gish gallop. Here you can read more about this. It's the "You got upset, I win" bullshit that infested reddit and is now infesting Lemmy.
Like when responding to an ignorant comment, are you yelling at them?
Sometimes, yes, and it is not my place to defend my right to exist, and now I'm yelling at you.
you’re not going to change their minds by flying off the handle and yelling at them or using hostile language
Again, changing their minds is not my place. In an inclusive forum, LGBT+ people don't have to defend our right to exist constantly. If someone wants to learn, there are places they can go that won't exhaust a bunch of innocent people trying to exist.
the ones making bad faith arguments want you to get pissed and make you look irrational
Yes, and this is why they need to be removed from this community. They don't belong in a space that is supposed to be validating and welcoming to all.
Don’t fucking let them.
Oh wow, haven't heard this one before a million times from bigots and their defenders. Thanks for the contribution, Dr. Phil. Now go fuck yourself. Reported.
i don't know why you've reported this because the person you're talking to clearly is not doing what you're charging them of doing. they just disagree with you--and, well, we're not going to throw someone who clearly isn't a bad faith actor or a nazi off the site for disagreeing with you on whether or not hostility toward transphobes is a good tactic or not.
I disagree. I don't mind if they want to be polite to transphobes and take that approach, but I think I made it clear in my post that I'm disgusted with people who arrogantly presume to lecture us on how we need to be nicer. It's all part of the severely misguided idea that people withdraw allyship because we're not kind and patient enough. Sometimes anger is justified. I'd much rather someone be angry at me while defending equity and human rights, vs. someone being a polite bigot.
Please do let me know your thoughts though, because maybe it is I who needs to take a break.
Personally I feel that asking a marginalized community to "be nice" to those oppressing them is complete hogwash; I believe it was Martin Luther King Jr. who said "riots are the voice of a rebellion."
That being said, I think that what Kolanki was trying to say is that a majority of the time, transphobes aren't looking to have their mind changed when they log onto the internet to spread their bigotry; they're looking for an outburst of violent reaction from the people they torment.
Oftentimes they may be looking for this as evidence to support whatever claim they're making about trans people (they're violent, they have an agenda, they want to take people's kids, etc). Coming from a background of abuse, I agree that we shouldn't feed the bigots much like one shouldn't feed trolls; they never leave once you start unless removed by force (i.e. banned from a community, in this case).
I do agree that people don't withdraw allyship because we're not kind or nice or patient enough or what-have-you; that is something that I have not seen personally and anecdotally from other marginalized people (in fact, I've tended to see the opposite).
Are you misinterpreting my post? These are not arguments said by me -- these are arguments that come from bad-faith actors
If that truly is the case, I guess I did. My bad. But considering you said it was a bad opinion you saw, and not someone else saying that opinion was bad, you should maybe reword your post or re-read mine because I disagree that one argument is a bad opinion.
Oh wow, haven't heard this one before a million times from bigots and their defenders. Thanks for the contribution, Dr. Phil. Now go fuck yourself. Reported.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Two misunderstandings, but your first instinct is to tell me to go fuck myself and report my comment. Now it's hard to tell you're actually being genuine about this argument not being your own. You're not going to change minds by being a cunt and just having them removed. You clearly do not care about changing opinions; just protecting your own.
"Never argue with stupid people they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" -Mark Twain
Besides which, it's not kind to spew vitriol, nor is it productive. It's certainly understandable to be outraged. It makes sense. You certainly can't ignore such things, it's not right. Responding in hatred only feeds the conviction of the ignorant and diminishes the righteousness of your own stance.
It's a lose-lose.
I won't even start talking about who benefits from everyone fighting each other... Certainly not us!
Agreed with points all around, just wanted to add:
- “People need to be educated, and you’re not going to change their minds by becoming hostile.”
It frankly isn't our job to teach bigots to not be bigots. That's on them to learn to be better people, and if they can't, then fuck 'em.
Also, frankly, being over forty years old has taught me that not becoming hostile and trying to educated these fuckin cretins doesn't work either, because they don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves. They will only care about a political issue when it affects them directly, and even then, they'll only want solutions for themselves and still act like it shouldn't be a big deal for others.
They are not acting in good faith, so why the fuck would we waste our time teaching people who want to erase us?
- “[Famous person] literally did the bare minimum to support gay people, so I doubt they’re transphobic.”
The only person who can name someone as an ally is someone from the community that needs allies.
If I am cisgender walk around calling myself an ally, even if I participate in allyship: I'm kind of an asshole.
If, on the other hand, I walk around participating in allyship, but rather, describe myself as "aspiring to be an ally," then: Maybe, just maybe, I'll actually do enough good works for someone in the community to think I am an ally. You don't get fucking bonus points for being Cisgender and bare minimum not being a shitheel. Actually stand up for the trans community, or take a hike, we don't need performative allyship.
I haven't seen a single megastar really stand up for the trans community.
- “They’re from a different time.”
Maybe they should go live in a fucking cave, then, if they can't fucking hack it in the modern world. Fucking neanderthals.
I mean Jesus tittyfucking Christ, The Second Sex was written in Nineteen Fucking Forty-Nine. How old does the concept of gender identity need to be for these jerks to fucking accept it? They need to crack open a fucking book once in a while. The idea that they're from a different time is a fucking joke when the concept itself is seventy-four fucking years old. (and very likely much older, just not articulated in Western literature)
It’s no one’s job to do anything. But if you want to achieve real world results you have to work with the psychology of real world humans. This isn’t a game with an even playing field, it’s real life where people that pursue truth have to work way harder than those that peddle lies.
It’s a completely understandable sentiment because it’s an inherently unfair dynamic, no argument there. But if you want to change things you have to change people and that requires acknowledging that human minds are resistant to corrections and get even more obstinate in the face of hostility. Especially when there’s a whole political movement of reactionaries that will lie about you to get their way.
Not everyone is worth the effort of course, some are too dogmatically attached to their beliefs and others are just contrarian assholes that like hurting others. But the existence of close minded assholes doesn’t mean they are the only people that exist.
I hate point 3 whenever it's used by someone. I've seen it used to defend people who had slaves too. It's like, you know that there were anti-slavery people even back then, right? Heck, there were anti-slavery people back in Roman times.
So if they could see the wrongness of slavery as wrong then, then no one else has that excuse.
It's just that people don't want to admit that a large amount, if not an outright majority, of people in history were bad, evil people. Most people were not good. Or, at the very least, they had little empathy for others outside their immediate family.
Even back in the 80s we didn't excuse bigotry, no matter the age or the history of the person. We maybe didn't feel as safe calling it out publicly back in the day, but it was certainly discussed. A bigot is a bigot, end of story. There was no excuse for it in 1983- when the ones "from a different time" were young!- and there's still no excuse for it forty years later.
I saw an after school special called "What If I'm Gay?" from the 80s that was surprisingly progressive and didn't lean on stereotypes or tropes. My elementary PE teacher was an LGBT+ activist, and we had at least one openly LGBT+ speaker at a school assembly who spoke about acceptance, and I grew up in a small conservative town.
Even Nirvana wrote in the liner notes for one of their albums that sexists and homophobes shouldn't buy their records or come to their shows.
I didn't know a lot of openly trans people back then, but that's because many people didn't feel safe coming out. Regardless, I can't imagine having responded with the brand of ignorance and hate we were actively pushing back against.
With that being said, LGBTphobia was certainly commonplace back then, but as you said, there was no excuse. People knew better, but they participated in it anyway.
I don't know what this rant is in response to, but it's ironic that it was posted right after my wife was upset about a bunch of transphobic comments made to her friend's (semi-famous) mother being posted on another platform. It amazes me how upset people get at others who want to just live their lives to their fullest.
I'll never understand how people can say the L and G are different from the B and T.
Like the B is L and G and so aren't some of the T.
There's just no logic in excluding them
Especially when you actually read a queer history book
point number one is perfectly reasonable but has been weaponized by your enemies.
I understand what's going on when people dog pile on me for asking a naive question because it's so often the starting point for bad faith actors, but many people just see the community as hostile and unwilling to alleviate ignorance.
be kind, don't do their work for them.
Do as you like, but don't imply that it is necessary to be kind to those who question LGBT+ people's right to equity. It is you who are working for them when you imply we will lose allyship by not being nice enough.
many people just see the community as hostile and unwilling to alleviate ignorance
...which is itself a bigoted belief. No one who approaches in good faith legitimately believes this. You've been deceived.
nazis are from a different time
People need to be educated, and you’re not going to change their minds by becoming hostile
This might be a bad opinion. But it's not transphobic.
It was used to handwave away discussions of transphobia, so it is definitely transphobic
It certainly can be in the context of a conversation about transgender folks