this post was submitted on 02 Sep 2023

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submitted 3 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by LinkOpensChest_wav@beehaw.org to c/lgbtq_plus@beehaw.org

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[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 27 points 3 years ago* (3 children)

You say that

People need to be educated, and you're not going to change their minds by becoming hostile.

Is a bad take, but then your follow up explanation doesn't really go into detail about the sentiment behind this statement and reads completely off topic. Do you really think hostility is necessary to educate? Like when responding to an ignorant comment, are you yelling at them? As irrational as some phobics are, I agree you're not going to change their minds by flying off the handle and yelling at them or using hostile language. Not only do many people of all opinions respond poorly to that, the ones making bad faith arguments want you to get pissed and make you look irrational. Don't fucking let them.

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[–] LinkOpensChest_wav@beehaw.org [S] 23 points 3 years ago (4 children)

your follow up explanation doesn’t really go into detail about the sentiment behind this statement and reads completely off topic

Are you misinterpreting my post? These are not arguments said by me -- these are arguments that come from bad-faith actors who are polluting what are supposed to be welcoming forums by putting the onus on us to behave politely when they are coming into threads with their nonsensical gish gallop. Here you can read more about this. It's the "You got upset, I win" bullshit that infested reddit and is now infesting Lemmy.

Like when responding to an ignorant comment, are you yelling at them?

Sometimes, yes, and it is not my place to defend my right to exist, and now I'm yelling at you.

you’re not going to change their minds by flying off the handle and yelling at them or using hostile language

Again, changing their minds is not my place. In an inclusive forum, LGBT+ people don't have to defend our right to exist constantly. If someone wants to learn, there are places they can go that won't exhaust a bunch of innocent people trying to exist.

the ones making bad faith arguments want you to get pissed and make you look irrational

Yes, and this is why they need to be removed from this community. They don't belong in a space that is supposed to be validating and welcoming to all.

Don’t fucking let them.

Oh wow, haven't heard this one before a million times from bigots and their defenders. Thanks for the contribution, Dr. Phil. Now go fuck yourself. Reported.

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[–] alyaza@beehaw.org 24 points 3 years ago (1 child)

i don't know why you've reported this because the person you're talking to clearly is not doing what you're charging them of doing. they just disagree with you--and, well, we're not going to throw someone who clearly isn't a bad faith actor or a nazi off the site for disagreeing with you on whether or not hostility toward transphobes is a good tactic or not.

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[–] LinkOpensChest_wav@beehaw.org [S] 12 points 3 years ago (1 child)

I disagree. I don't mind if they want to be polite to transphobes and take that approach, but I think I made it clear in my post that I'm disgusted with people who arrogantly presume to lecture us on how we need to be nicer. It's all part of the severely misguided idea that people withdraw allyship because we're not kind and patient enough. Sometimes anger is justified. I'd much rather someone be angry at me while defending equity and human rights, vs. someone being a polite bigot.

Please do let me know your thoughts though, because maybe it is I who needs to take a break.

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[–] cityboundforest@beehaw.org 14 points 3 years ago (1 child)

Personally I feel that asking a marginalized community to "be nice" to those oppressing them is complete hogwash; I believe it was Martin Luther King Jr. who said "riots are the voice of a rebellion."

That being said, I think that what Kolanki was trying to say is that a majority of the time, transphobes aren't looking to have their mind changed when they log onto the internet to spread their bigotry; they're looking for an outburst of violent reaction from the people they torment.

Oftentimes they may be looking for this as evidence to support whatever claim they're making about trans people (they're violent, they have an agenda, they want to take people's kids, etc). Coming from a background of abuse, I agree that we shouldn't feed the bigots much like one shouldn't feed trolls; they never leave once you start unless removed by force (i.e. banned from a community, in this case).

I do agree that people don't withdraw allyship because we're not kind or nice or patient enough or what-have-you; that is something that I have not seen personally and anecdotally from other marginalized people (in fact, I've tended to see the opposite).

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[–] darq@kbin.social 9 points 3 years ago

If the argument is that people shouldn't react with hostility towards bigots, that's fine on the condition that the bigoted people are removed very quickly. No hearing them out. No giving them the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise the space is just tolerating them with extra steps.

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[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 20 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (1 child)

Are you misinterpreting my post? These are not arguments said by me -- these are arguments that come from bad-faith actors

If that truly is the case, I guess I did. My bad. But considering you said it was a bad opinion you saw, and not someone else saying that opinion was bad, you should maybe reword your post or re-read mine because I disagree that one argument is a bad opinion.

Oh wow, haven't heard this one before a million times from bigots and their defenders. Thanks for the contribution, Dr. Phil. Now go fuck yourself. Reported.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Two misunderstandings, but your first instinct is to tell me to go fuck myself and report my comment. Now it's hard to tell you're actually being genuine about this argument not being your own. You're not going to change minds by being a cunt and just having them removed. You clearly do not care about changing opinions; just protecting your own.

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[–] vonbaronhans@midwest.social 6 points 3 years ago (1 child)

I mean, swap out the implied "protecting your own (opinion)" with "protecting your own (place on the Internet where we can live largely free from well-meaning but ignorant people, actual bigots, and sea lions)" and I do think that was OP's point, yes.

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[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 6 points 3 years ago

That's valid; but that's not going to change people's minds which is exactly what the original statement was talking about. If you're actually going to engage in a discussion with these people, hostility won't help. Just block them, and if they are violating the rules of the community/instance, report them. You're just wasting energy if the only thing you're going to engage with is name-calling; even if it is warranted.

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[–] potterman28wxcv@beehaw.org 11 points 3 years ago

It is literally part of Beehaw rules to be nice to each others, cf this excerpt from beehaw rules:

If you aren’t nice, we’ll remind you to be nice. If you continue to be problematic, we’ll escalate from there, but it will be on a case-by-case basis. If your first reply when we ask you to be nice to each other is to tell us to “fuck off”, we will respond in kind.

It is also part of the rules to not be transphobic, cf

we simply do not tolerate intolerant behavior. Being explicitly racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, or bigoted in any other fashion is not tolerated here.

If you find a transphobic post and you feel that you are unable to reply nicely, the correct course of action would be to report said transphobic post.

If you are not content with this rule of "be nice" I'm afraid Beehaw is not for you

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[–] cubedsteaks@lemmy.today 8 points 3 years ago

It’s the “You got upset, I win” bullshit that infested reddit and is now infesting Lemmy.

It's what I call the "4chan mentality" where they just want you to react - they'll do or say anything to get you to interact with them. As long as you're responding, they feel like they won on some level.

But getting upset and hostile doesn't stop them. They enjoy that. That's part of the problem.

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[–] Quexotic@beehaw.org 19 points 3 years ago

"Never argue with stupid people they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" -Mark Twain

Besides which, it's not kind to spew vitriol, nor is it productive. It's certainly understandable to be outraged. It makes sense. You certainly can't ignore such things, it's not right. Responding in hatred only feeds the conviction of the ignorant and diminishes the righteousness of your own stance.

It's a lose-lose.

I won't even start talking about who benefits from everyone fighting each other... Certainly not us!

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[–] Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 3 years ago (1 child)

Bad take. I don't want it to be up to me as a trans person to educate anyone anymore. And if they're bad faith ban them lmao.

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[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 5 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (3 children)

Bad take. I don't want it to be up to me as a trans person to educate anyone anymore.

No, this is a bad take. You're in the best possible position to educate people about your own thoughts, feelings, and what it is like being trans. Your voice can make changes that would help other trans people. If everyone shared this attitude, the only people educating others about trans would be non-trans people who have no idea what it's like to be trans.

If they truly are in bad faith, you would still have to engage them beyond reading one question to know that for sure, and this side of the LGBTQA+ community has a really bad habit of immediately being triggered by pretty much any questions about trans topics, regardless of how they are presented or by whom.

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[–] HumbleHobo@beehaw.org 5 points 3 years ago (1 child)

It's not a trans persons responsibility to have to explain their existence though. Can you imagine how exhausting that would be? Give them a break. Give them some cover. I actually love all my trans friends and I try to listen and see what they want. I don't put the burden on them to be the trans explainer in all situations.

I just give them love when they need it, and an ear when they need it. I think, just like all of us, they just want to exist and not be hassled about it most times, and if given the right space and the right moment they might tell you about their experience and maybe you'll get a chance to help.

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[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 4 points 3 years ago

I see this as being the difference between covering a friend and coddling them. I'll defend everyone in this community with my life if it came to it. But I'm not going to coddle anyone from non-threats, and take the time to actually make sure if someone is simply curious or is a bad faith actor before hand. While it can be obvious sometimes, many times it's just a non-trans ally who wants to learn. I think it's best to give benefit of the doubt at first, until any ulterior motives are exposed.

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[–] NoraReed@beehaw.org 4 points 3 years ago

oh my god if educating transphobes was our job we'd never have time to do anything else

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[–] Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago)

I read this thread and I agree with you. I can't give up on those who don't understand.

I wanna add though, I chose Blahaj Zone (the trans safe space instance) because I'm finding arguments distracting. I think at this point, I get a lot more pride and hope out of finding out an artist or musician is trans. Everytime Pigstep plays in minecraft I just stand there and enjoy it.

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