this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2024
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Hello comrades. In the interest of upholding our code of conduct - specifically, rule 1 (providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all) - we felt it appropriate to make a statement regarding the lionization of Luigi Mangione, the alleged United Healthcare CEO shooter, also known as "The Adjuster."

In the day or so since the alleged shooter's identity became known to the public, the whole world has had the chance to dig though his personal social media accounts and attempt to decipher his political ideology and motives. What we have learned may shock you. He is not one of us. He is a "typical" American with largely incoherent, and in many cases reactionary politics. For the most part, what is remarkable about the man himself is that he chose to take out his anger on a genuine enemy of the proletariat, instead of an elementary school.

This is a situation where the art must be separated from the artist. We do not condemn the attack, but as a role model, Luigi Mangione falls short. We do not expect perfection from revolutionary figures either, but we expect a modicum of revolutionary discipline. We expect them not simply to identify an unpopular element of society hitler-detector , but to clearly illuminate the causes of oppression and the means by which they are overcome. When we canonize revolutionary figures, we are holding them up as an example to be followed.

This is where things come back to rule 1. Mangione has a long social media history bearing a spectrum of reactionary viewpoints, and interacting positively with many powerful reactionary figures. While some commenters have referred to this as "nothing malicious," by lionizing this man we effectively deem this behavior acceptable, or at the very least, safe to ignore. This is the type of tailism which opens the door to making a space unsafe for marginalized people.

We're going to be more strict on moderating posts which do little more than lionize the shooter. There is plenty to be said about the unfolding events, the remarkably positive public reaction, how public reactions to "propaganda of the deed" may have changed since the historical epoch of its conception (and how the strategic hazards might not have), and many other aspects of the news without canonizing this man specifically. We can still dance on the graves of our enemies and celebrate their rediscovered fear and vulnerability without the vulgar revisionism needed to pretend this man is some sort of example of Marxist or Anarchist practice.

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[–] [email protected] 106 points 1 week ago

I'm going to post my reddit comment replying to a discussion about how Lenin's critique of adventurism applies in this situation, because I think it sums up my thoughts pretty well:

Lenin was critiquing socialists engaging in adventurism, who should know better. If this dude were in the PSL or something, the party would be in the uncomfortable position of needing to publicly distance themselves from him if they want to maintain a disciplined ideology rooted in democratic centralism. But the fact that this was some tech bro who had to face the material conditions of the health insurance industry and organically gravitated toward an adventurist strategy-- that's something else entirely. That's a barometer of class malcontent in the general population, and it seems to be off the charts at the moment

[–] [email protected] 90 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children)

I think you are getting it backwards: people (not just here) are celebrating spontaneous adventurism because there is no left in America that would step up and do something about the deteriorating and exploitative healthcare situation in the country.

It would not even be a spectacle if there is an actual left wing movement in America. And until you have an organized movement in the country that is serious about winning and actually does things (not cosplaying as protestors in rallies), you simply have to concede to what the masses (most of whom are the working class people who want a left to do something about it) think about this guy.

Reading the reaction as the lionization of an individual rather than an emotional outburst of an entire class of people suffering from years of oppression will, of course, lead the American left to miss their mark once more.

[–] [email protected] 50 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Reading the reaction as the lionization of an individual rather than an emotional outburst of an entire class of people suffering from years of oppression will, of course, lead the American left to miss their mark once more.

I mean, Hexbear (or a segment of Hexbear which includes the mods, I guess, is) but I follow a lot of American communists on TikTok and not one of them has condemned the guy like you see here, they've remained (like the masses of people on social media as far as I can tell) pretty on board the "lmao, CEO down!" train.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 week ago (1 children)

That is at least comforting to know.

I will add one more thing though: if this incident does not translate into a political movement, if the American left cannot leverage this level of public outcry and transform the energy into political actions, then you can forget about having any sustained left wing movement in the country.

This is the litmus test, and if they don’t learn their lessons from the failure to leverage the opportunity to advance healthcare rights afforded by a global pandemic, then their only fate is to be swept into the dustbin of History.

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[–] [email protected] 84 points 1 week ago (1 children)

We do not expect perfection from revolutionary figures either, but we expect a modicum of revolutionary discipline. We expect them not simply to identify an unpopular element of society , but to clearly illuminate the causes of oppression and the means by which they are overcome

Respectfully, don’t hold your fucking breath. He’s not the hero we deserve, but he’s the hero we need…? Or, he’s not the hero we need, but he’s the hero we deserve?

Look, I’m not looking to canonize the guy. He’s no Fidel. He’s no Harriet Tubman.

But for fuck’s sake, the purity tests get a bit exhausting. I’m not aware of any successful revolutions that were won by revolutionaries who were all on the same page ideologically. Are you?

At some point we’re gonna have to reckon with the fact that revolution requires alliance with people who have problematic views.

Dude had some bigoted viewpoints and dumbass takes. He doesn’t appear to be a Nazi though, IMO.

For fuck’s sake, when I was 26, I was libbed the fuck up, eager to use my international relations degree to work for the UN or the fucking State Dept 🤮 When I was 32, I was so libbed up I was posting inspirational Harry Potter metaphors on Facebook to inspire the other libs to ReSiSt Trump.

Now I am a 40 year old anarchist prostitute! None of us came out of the womb radicalized. The kid has time to develop some class consciousness. Let him cook.

Critical support to him. Don’t pedestal individuals. But this discourse on the left is fucking frustrating.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 1 week ago

And also, this post criticizing people for not unpacking their critical support at every mention just reads like OP has only spent time in online spaces

[–] [email protected] 75 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (18 children)

Okay, I literally only started commenting on this site literally less than a week ago, so I want to drop a disclaimer before I start yapping that I don't mean to misrepresent anyone's positions.

I think there's value in noting his various alleged and reported reactionary tendencies because when we're on a site like Hexbear which is just largely us leftists, we should know where the line in the sand is among ourselves. But what's the point? Well, the point is this: We should never expect perfection from "revolutionary figures" but there are figures who have come historically close to to it and whom are actually one of us. Those like Alexandra Kollontai, Fred Hampton, Leila Khaled. They deserve our recognition because only us leftists can ever pay tribute to their actions and recognize them for the heroes they are, whom should have given universal "lionization" in a just world. While we should seize the moment which things like this provides, someone like Luigi (unless there's been a drastic change in his values in the months he's reportedly gone cold turkey from his socials) hasn't come close to earning the credentials to stand among those we should be paying our respects to.

I don't think it's pedantic to insist on this because us leftists are the most persecuted and censored political groups in the West in the entirety of its contemporary and when we're among ourselves, we should not be elevating any random person to some heroic ranking when there are plenty of others to hold up as inspirational. That sort of thing among ourselves would detract from the important recognition that there really have been revolutionary figures who came close to perfection in terms of our ideals, whose memory has been completely suppressed from any public consciousness.

Yes, when I'm on R*ddit (fuck me, I literally vowed to never go back to that site again in one of my first comments here but this event is drawing me back in) or especially IRL, you can bet I'm not going to be going "Well actually, he's likely reactionary and you should feel gross for supporting him." I'll pretend he's a full blown Das Kapital-reciting Marxist-Leninist and "The Last Communist" if that's what it takes to use this moment to instil some miniscule specks of revolutionary awareness in the average person I'm in contact with. If there's anything that can be done to prolong this ephemeral moment of frankly miraculous class solidarity we're seeing in the bombed out ideological wasteland of Western society by even a second more for the IRL communities I'm in, yes, I'll "lionize" him to sainthood if necessary.

For example, the food bank org I volunteer with actually agreed yesterday to allow us to commission some small pamphlets with poems and personal testimonies on struggling with insurance (and lol someone suggested Luigi stickers if Nintendo doesn't Oreshnik us with their legal team) for the distribution team to hand out during the food drive this holidays. Literally nothing, all things considered, but you wouldn't imagine the amount of pushback from the civility libs just to agree to do something small like this. There's also great examples of others using whatever medium they have at hand to help educate their audiences on the twisted nature of the American system right now, like Jesse Welles' new song about United Health and its founder Richard T. Burke. But when we're among ourselves, as leftists, we should know where we should really stand because there are real near-perfect heroes out there that deserve our support and whom have only us leftists to depend on for solidarity.

Do most people in this community even know that the Merrimack 4 - Calla, Bridget, Paige and Sophie - who are part of the Palestinian Action US group that heroically sabotaged productions at a Elbit Systems factory, the Israeli arms contractor, are currently in jail right now? Calla is a great comrade who I personally met while at an event for Cuban solidarity (IIRC, I think the Deprogram podcast also did an episode with her about Cuba) and is actually one of us. Luigi is likely well aware of the widespread support from the general population by now and the general population is already apparently all too happy to support him and send him things in commissary to show he is "not alone."

But it rests with us leftists alone to stand with those like the Merrimack 4 and let them know their heroism has not been and will not be forgotten. Calla has been doxxed and harassed by stalker Israeli groups like Canary Mission and the shitstain incels on r/tankiejerk. The 14th is the halfway point of their 60 day imprisonment and this is usually the point in time where the initial wave of support slows down and the isolating pressure of the fascist prison system sets into the morale of the imprisoned

I actually have been meaning to ask the admins/mods (but I haven't figured out if there's a way to PM the mod team) if it would be okay to make a post on the mutual aid sub in 3 days time for the purpose of sending them gifts like letters or books, especially as they'll be imprisoned through the holiday season and into the new year. If not, I'll just ask now that anyone here who is considering sending Luigi any gifts to please instead consider sending a message of solidarity to others like Calla, Bridget, Paige and Sophie instead (or on their socials). Here a link to Calla's Twitter with information on means of support for anyone interested.

In short, use the moment this event has provided when doing IRL work in whichever way you feel necessary but when we're among ourselves, we should always remember there are those who deserve our solidarity and our attention to their memory far more than those the general public already recognize and whom are actually our own. This is why, within communities like this, there should be a clear distinction and reservations made, in my opinion.

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[–] [email protected] 71 points 1 week ago (3 children)
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[–] [email protected] 69 points 1 week ago (6 children)

I just find the whole shooting and everything that came after it really really funny. Why do people have to turn something so absurdly funny into something ultra serious? He's not the next Lenin or the next John Brown. You don't have to put him on a pedestal or even care that much about him as a person. Fucking relax. Please.

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[–] [email protected] 68 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I mean, he shouldn't be lionized regardless because he didn't do it.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 1 week ago (2 children)

We appreciate the event, and as far as the event goes, his head just did that.

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[–] [email protected] 66 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (12 children)

Seriously disappointed by what I'm seeing here and in a few other places on hexbear. Do I support the action? Of course. Do I see it as an opportunity to increase class conciousness? Yes. Am I going to uncritically support Luigi just because of that? No.

If all it takes is a single act and the use of some vaguely class concious language to absolve someone of thier reactionary views then why don't we just start uncritically supporting MAGA communists, Vaush, and any other public figures who hold vaguely leftist views? When I see people saying "don't criticize Luigi" I see people saying that they don't give a fuck about their comrades who are marginalized because they belong to a minority group who is affected by reactionary views.

If we are going to use this as an opportunity to build class conciousness, let us do so intelligently. I've been talking to people IRL about this and emphasizing the material conditions which brought about this act. But if someone were to point out that he believed that part of the problem that Americans are facing is woke/DEI or immigrants then I'm going to call him out on that. And if anyone here who keeps on harping about "letting perfect be the enemy of good" then just fucking stop and think for one second. You're opening the door for the right to capture the people who are awakening to their class conciousness. And hell its not as if it isn't already happening. THe populist Trump right uses woking class language all the time to justify heinous shit. And if you are willing to let Luigi's shit views slide then you may as well start supporting right wing populaists just because they are "building" class conciousness.

Also seeing people whine about how this is being moderated and it being "worse" than reddit are being incredibly daft. I still see plenty of Luigi memes that haven't been deleted by the mod team. If you think that posts and comments lionizing or otherwise uncritically supporting Luigi then you are being reddit-logo brained.

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[–] [email protected] 65 points 1 week ago (3 children)

okay that's fine, but what if i want to lionize him as in, draw him and turn him into a hot, buff anthropomorphic lion, kind of like tony the tiger but a bit more human and a lot more sexy?

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[–] [email protected] 65 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

Did you guys check if yamagami had good politics before you officially lionized him on Hexbear? Or are you just navel gazing because Luigi is American?

[–] [email protected] 50 points 1 week ago (1 children)

assad-must-stay

who-must-go

must-go

assad-pogger

It's almost like there's no consistency in the moderation and scolding

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 week ago (6 children)

Dorner, doohickey guy, Teddy K, even arguably Aaron Bushnell being a US service member who directly aided in US imperialism, all had shitty takes and were adventurists who didn't directly overthrow the system as is through a systemic mass movement based around the materialist principles of Marxism. I do not care about Luigi that much one way or the other than it's funny an Italian guy blasted an evil mfer in the middle of NYC. it's just the flavour of the month news story and the mods demanding you post correctly about it with very little actual explaination of what that means leading to week long bans over not being the principled reading club of the vanguard again. one mans taillism is anothers propaganda of the deed, and discussion around that should be allowed as it is with the aformentioned people we literally have emojis of.

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[–] [email protected] 64 points 1 week ago (2 children)

what is remarkable about the man himself is that he chose to take out his anger on a genuine enemy of the proletariat, instead of an elementary school.

it's cause he's italian (not a total whiteboy)

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[–] [email protected] 60 points 1 week ago (6 children)

His politics were awful but what if he changed. People can change. He read the Lorax.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 1 week ago (3 children)

From what I've seen he had his back surgery and disappeared for like 3 months. What if he spent that time popping pain pills and playing disco elysium.

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[–] [email protected] 58 points 1 week ago (8 children)

the cycles between mod overreach backlash keep getting shorter and shorter

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[–] [email protected] 58 points 1 week ago (3 children)

I'll do my best to respect the direction the community opts to go and I understand the reasons and stated concern...but as someone who hasn't personally done much lionizing of Mangione after his reveal, consider this my voice of dissent.

I am also disappointed that Luigi Mangione falls well short of our ideal role model as much as anyone...but ultimately we are materialists and this reaction strikes me as rather liberal and idealist. This isn't even a case where the right thing was done for the wrong reasons. Mangione's actions and motivations as outlined in his manifesto were an action of class war. As a figure he is complicated and problematic and the way he did the math completely wrong and somehow still managed to arrive at the right conclusion is quite head scratching...but ultimately I believe the words "critical support" apply here.

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[–] [email protected] 56 points 1 week ago

He is not a revolutionary figure, he is an atom of the masses, maybe the first bubble of a pot about to boil over. The masses do not appear out of thin air when The Conditions are right, they come from the current reactionary society, and we have to meet them as they are, they will not become revolutionary on their own. It makes no sense to condemn him for either adventurism or having reactionary views, those are our failures as organized radical leftists.

[–] [email protected] 54 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Given the absurdity of reaaons given for removing my comments and the style of this post, it seems like there is still a need for the mod team to do some self-crit around community management. No discussions, no explanations in light of mild criticism, just dropping the hammer from on high. Both of my comments were removed using bad faith assumptions that are inaccurate and zero people have talked to me about it.

I was already too embarrassed of this site's trigger-happy flippant modding and mod-driven struggle sessions to recommend it to anyone else anymore. I thought even my irl trans commie friends would dislike it, and lo and behold, when they found it themselves, they did (though it was during the TC69 return). I contributed materially to the site quite a bit in the early years (not comments/posts) so I felt a bit invested.

But things are not going in the right direction and I have no confidence in the admin/mod team.

I'll see some of you in other spaces.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 1 week ago (13 children)

As a newer user on this site, I couldn’t agree more. I mod a large-ish leftist subreddit so I do get the challenges of moderating effectively but seems like the mod team here just removes anything that vaguely hurts someone’s feelings.

There is a difference between feeling unsafe and being unsafe. There is a difference between feeling unsafe and feeling uncomfortable. A lot of people don’t seem to understand these differences.

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[–] [email protected] 53 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Incoming ramble

The Hexbear user base has held two contradictory views which need to be reconciled.

  1. Luigi should be celebrated as an example of the transcendental power of material forces to overcome ideology.
  2. Luigi should be disowned as an unreliable, broken clock whose ideology happens to align with the working class in this one instance.

Both of these things can be true simultaneously — so do we like Luigi or don’t we?

On the one hand, “actions speak louder than words.” Who cares what the guy tweets if his actions are indiscernible from those advocated by theory-gary? How can we, in abstract theory, speak of the inevitability of material forces to assert themselves on society, yet behave as though these forces are manifested only through the intellectually enlightened?

As Marx puts it, “They do not know it, but they do it.” Individual behaviors are forced to align with the conditions, eventually, whether or not one is conscious of it.

On the other hand, we also have reference to historical examples of revolution. I’m not the most well read on the Bolsheviks, the Maoists, and dozens of other revolutionary groups. But I think it can be said that ideological consistency is important for a revolution to succeed. Political action only becomes a movement when it has direction. At the forefront of the class war is the intellectual war. The bourgeoisie has claim of not only the forces of production, but the forces of intellectual production. A revolutionary movement has to have some kind of vanguard that can intellectually counter the theory and ideas put forth by the bourgeoisie.

Even at the time of the Manifesto, it was important for Marx and Engels to consolidate a constellation of socialist ideas behind a clear and decisive theory; one that could be signed-on by each faction.

Excerpt from Engels’ 1890 foreword to the Communist Manifesto

It was bound to have a programme which would not shut the door on the English trade unions, the French, Belgian, Italian, and Spanish Proudhonists, and the German Lassalleans. This programme — the considerations underlying the Statutes of the International — was drawn up by Marx with a master hand acknowledged even by the Bakunin and the anarchists. For the ultimate final triumph of the ideas set forth in the Manifesto, Marx relied solely upon the intellectual development of the working class, as it necessarily has to ensue from united action and discussion. The events and vicissitudes in the struggle against capital, the defeats even more than the successes, could not but demonstrate to the fighters the inadequacy of their former universal panaceas, and make their minds more receptive to a thorough understanding of the true conditions for working-class emancipation. And Marx was right. The working class of 1874, at the dissolution of the International, was altogether different from that of 1864, at its foundation. Proudhonism in the Latin countries, and the specific Lassalleanism in Germany, were dying out; and even the ten arch-conservative English trade unions were gradually approaching the point where, in 1887, the chairman of their Swansea Congress could say in their name: “Continental socialism has lost its terror for us.” Yet by 1887 continental socialism was almost exclusively the theory heralded in the Manifesto. Thus, to a certain extent, the history of the Manifesto reflects the history of the modern working-class movement since 1848.


Clearly, while material forces will assert themselves, the character of their manifestation depends on many factors. Decaying conditions can either produce a positive and democratic revolution, or they can cast a nation into a long period of fascism that sets back the revolution by 500 years. Human agency is an essential part of history and revolution. Ideology, being the indirect driver of human action, plays a part regardless of its theoretical subordination to material forces.

Wrapping this up… I think it comes down to the true meaning of ~~Christmas~~ critical support. What does it actually mean? It’s too easy to use it as a crutch — to omit from analysis those things most challenging to understand, while preserving a self-image of nuance and maturity.

Critical support should actually involve critique. Not in order to undermine but to advance the theory and therefore the cause. This dude Luigi presents an opportunity to demonstrate the truth of point #1 (inevitability of material forces) while critiquing the person: the insufficiency of adventurism, in its function as an individual battle and not a collective battle of the working class; the flaws of his reactionary ideology and its tendency to break up the working class; and the wasted potential of a manifesto without a clear message.

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 week ago (5 children)

This is why I wish he wasn't caught. During the time he was on the run the focus was all on what a terrible person Brian Thompson is and how deeply evil the Amerikkkan "healthcare" industry is. Now all people want to do is talk about the guy who did it and not the ghoul who was killed.

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 week ago (13 children)

Been more disgusted with the lionizing of HTS and al-Jolani tbh

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 week ago

Feels like we started a struggle session bc someone posted out of hand? Weird paternalistic mod behavior to post this ngl. downbear

[–] [email protected] 44 points 1 week ago (6 children)

I'm having conflicting feelings

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 week ago

There is a very easy way to avoid all of this. Just celebrate the killing of a CEO. Stop talking about Luigi jfc

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