chat

Your personal conditions won't affect the superstructure of capitalism. Once you break free of the propaganda machine and see the demon for what it is, there's no going back.

I've said this before, my family is basically the Park family from Parasite

It's a big picture thing for me. Capitalism "benefits" me individually in that it enables my family to live in decadence right now, but it's not sustainable. The world is burning up and while it won't affect me initially, it inevitably will. The immense alienation and loneliness is also a direct consequence of individualist ideology.

My family is upper class, but not billionaires. We will be on the chopping block later than most, but we will end up there eventually. Capitalism, like fascism, has no end goal. While it might temporarily benefit me to close my eyes and pretend like neoliberalism is epic, I can't ignore how fucked we are if nothing changes.

I make more money than ever and it hasn't stopped my leftist ideals. If anything, it's only emboldened my resolve.

But here's the straight dope: I live a very isolated life. My friends lower on the economic totempole see me differently. Not necessarily negatively, but I noticed as I "made it" that relations started to change. I've had a buddy of mine confide in me that he feels embarrassed to hang out because he's been so unsuccessful. I suspect my other working-class friends feel similarly.

And because I can't relate to the Libshits around me at work and in the burbs, I have like maybe 2 friends I can sort of hang with and even then, their bad takes on the world are incredible. Meanwhile I'm constantly minding my "financial freedom" in paying bills, saving for college, figuring out taxes, figuring out insurance... which is fucking exhausting. Tangent: I'd rather have money than not have money in this hellscape (who wouldn't) but minding your shit after a certain level of income is basically another fucking job.

So yeah. Wife and I made it (whatver bullshit that means) and I might as well go live on an island. Which only proves to me how atomized we really are. If I had no money I'd strive for financial stability and have that consume my thoughts and motivations. Now I have money and the parts of life that matter most (friendship, piece of mind, personal fulfillment, etc) are unobtainable.

Which only makes me more of a Leftist.

The reason a dude like engles can be as rich as he was while being committed to communism, is because he was intelletually curious and committed to the truth, he wasnt satisfied with taking the easy way and coasting, you have to demand of yourself to never get intellectually lazy, and demand yourself that you keep studying, so set study goals and timetables and stick to them, form a reading group to keep each other on track and to advance your understanding and dont stop, when you get lazy youre cooked.

FWIW even a high-paying job still means you're part of the working class, not the ownership class.

I'm curious to know what someone who doesn't need a real job, like a landlord, thinks.

I was in tech for two years recently. It gave me enough money to purchase a vehicle to live in and to coast for the next little bit, but among the many reasons I quit (it was bad for my brain, it took up way too much of my time) was feeling the distinction in class interests. The biggest expression of this was that my coworkers had such bubbled views of social relations and had strange expectations of what the world owes them simply on account of how much money they have.

I think if you're committed to your principles you'll be fine. I just found I didn't like being around people of that class for such extended periods of time.

I wonder what keeps such people left wing

Um... having fucking principles? Like... I don't know, recognizing that communism is necessary for the continuation of humanity rather than barbarism and climate apocalypse?

I don't mean to be flippant, but I guess I do. If you know about the shit that we as leftists know about, you have learned about exploitation and class dynamics. With full awareness of these things, then if you're dipping out toward the right, you know what the fuck you're doing, you're a traitor. And knowing that, and still drifting off on greedy ass winds in a rightward direction because of your material interests... then fuck you, you were never a leftist. You may still sell your labor maybe you even make a killing with it as an aristocrat. But aristocracy in capitalism is being a class traitor. They are among the ghouls that those of us who are committed to human liberation speak of when we talk about having a place on a wall or in a pit.

Yes, I know. I'm just being idealist. Everything comes down to only class interest, and we are all of us victims of material circumstance. No, that's vulgar. If you were ever on the left because you had a human heart, you can't ever turn right and without knowing your position is: "screw y'all, I'm going for MINE."

Take the job. Get as much as you can. But whatever excess you have, and you'll know what is excess if you're honest with yourself, then don't waste it on personal enrichment. "Invest" it in revolutionary potential, organizations, direct aid, whatever. Enjoy your life, but know that if you have any power to effect change with or through your wealth, if you consider yourself leftist, if you consider yourself human you take the opportunity to help others.

Hearing from some of my other high paid coworkers talk about social issues reminds me that I'm nothing like them. I think for me, I just happen to have a high paying job and the pursuit of infinite wealth does not interest me. I'd only want more funds to fund mutual aid and things that grow communism.

Becoming a lawyer is part of what radicalised me tbh. Being in the system lets you hate it with the contempt born of familiarity

Are you out there trying to make more money just so that you can make more money? Then your leftyness was just opportunism. When you're poor you'll be more anti-capitalist/pro communist and for the moments in your life that you're not poor you'll be pro-capitalist/anti-communist.

Communism isn't a poverty cult.

by how much i fucking hated the job (other than the pay), to the point that i quit bc the depression and desire to self harm it tried and succeded to induce wasn't worth the money

Death to America

Don't worry, you'll still have shitty management and alienated labor, it'll just be harder to explain exactly what shitty things the management is doing, and the numbers will be bigger.

Being closer to money has helped me see how fucked up the bean counters really are. Thankfully, I'm lucky to be in a position where a lot of my day to day work is being actively adversarial to environmental degradation caused by capitalism.

I'm not particularly highly paid compared to most people i work with, but it seems like a simple way to not have your convictions eroded is to begin thinking about issues in a more structural way, rather than just the immediate.

So sure, the driving contradiction in my life is the fact that my rent and car-payments and childcare expenses are taking up a solid 105% of my post-tax pay, but I'm also capable of looking outside and seeing the fact that a 1000 people just fucking died of heatstroke during the Hajj, because temperatures in Saudi Arabia crested 50 degrees celsius. If you are actually interested in socialism, you'd probably pretty easily be able to connect the lack of income growth compared to inflation and climate change, as both issues have the same fundamental cause.

So long as you’re not profiting off the exploitation of people, I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with earning enough to live comfortably.

High pay didn’t stop me from walking out of a job that I felt was exploitative and harmful to people, and I don’t think it would to any leftist with conviction.

Make sure you've actually changed and aren't embracing communism rhetorically. No matter how wealthy I could possibly become, I've seen how the sausage is made. I can't not see the horror and exploitation endemic to every aspect of society. I always want to learn and uncover more. Money has limited utility in resisting the capitalist order so I'm not really chasing it, but I do have to survive because I know I'll get eaten up if I lag for too long.

IMO its good that you're worried at this stage, you might be a little less liberal than you think.

I make more than the median income where I live and I was poor for so long there is no way I forget what it was like.

Money is a tool. You can use it to make yourself better able to safely plan or take part in actions. You can also use it to fund actions. Sometimes being a paypig for lefty projects is actually more useful than being an organizer in your spare time. It all depends on context.

Material conditions, e.g. pay for a job class, shape the likelihood of whether one becomes class conscious. They are not being class conscious in and of itself nor being on the right side of the fight. Making more money doesn't make you bourgeois, but even among the bourgeoisie there are class traitors that help our movement to the extent they can from their positions as exploiters. And there are plenty of lefties that are petite bourgeois, it's a very easy thing to be. And you'll still just be working class but simply making more money.

The only real risk is that you may be surrounded by a new set of PMC climber colleagues whose interests are entirely selfish and against our overall struggle. You'll want to be able to prevent yourself from being influenced by their nonsense. This requires political education on your part. If you feel insecure about your political education, it's never too late to start checking off items on your reading list! Similarly, just ensuring you are in properly radical spaces that aren't full of PMCs is helpful for not feeling like you're a complete oddball all the time and that yes the precariat exists, yes they're treated in a fucked up way, yes imperialism exists, yes its targets can articulate exactly how it forced them to move to the imperial core, etc etc.

At your new job, you'll want to have camouflage, at least at first. This is so you can get that cash and begin redirecting part of it to good organizing projects / similar things. You're like a left infiltrator of a new organization. If you ever want to drop some of the camouflage, you can do so, but you can never re-camouflage once you've done so in that workplace. Use this to your advantage. Have the backs of your coworkers that deal with the negatives of PMC ideologies. Be "cool" without revealing exactly how far left you are. Keep focus on individual issues, individual elements of working conditions in a calm and pleasant way. And then, if you ever want to do more and have a hard fight, you will be a trusted known commodity that's in a strong position to start forming a union.

My job isn’t high-paying yet but it has potential to be in the near future if I can hang on and not fuck things up. But together my spouse and I are basically at the bottom of the top ten percent in the USA. I have more money and financial security now than I ever have. And I’m just continually amazed at encountering people every day who think that this country is normal or that it has a future. I’ve been riding around with one of my coworkers for weeks. Imagine spending thirty hours a week with a hexbear who is trying to convert you to communism without using any Marxist trigger words. I was full of despair with this guy a few weeks ago. I even talked with my therapist about it. He told me the true cliché, that a patient can’t change unless they want to. And my coworker owns next to nothing. He is so much closer to homelessness than he realizes. And he still put out little American flags for Memorial Day at his house. Lately however things have gotten better. I’ve started using words like “communism” and told him about my desire to live in China. I don’t get any pushback. At the same time I know that he’s not a Marxist, he looks at Facebook for treats all the time despite the fact that he is broke and his girlfriend is heavily in debt, that without guidance or study he’ll drift straight back into deep reactionary thought. He could also just be humoring me. Personally we like each other. But sometimes it’s amazing how much you can get white male Americans to agree with, at least temporarily. Yesterday I told him that if the USA stopped fighting imperialist wars and if it gave all its land back to Native Americans, it would cease to exist. No pushback. No “that would be bad.” On the other hand, he said something super ignorant about how the government is trying to brainwash him with propaganda. He’s not wrong, but the idea that the government is just one of many tools used by the ruling class to enslave humanity—that just doesn’t register with these people. They love the police and military but hate the government, even if half the government budget goes to the police (while the bourgeoisie steal 99% of the value that American labor aristocrats generate).

I agree with others here: if you get rich and cease to be a communist, then you were never one to begin with. At the moment I’m donating as much as I can to Palestinians without pissing off my spouse.

I don't even have a particularly high paying job but I know exactly how the demonic machine that benefits me works and I can't unlearn that

Secondary question for people with high paying jobs: say someone with little to no education wanted to transfer into your field so they aren't broke as shit all the time. How would ~~I~~ they do that?

Back before I lost my job and fell into destitution I was a reasonably well paid software developer.

Staying aware of what is happening in the world will probably keep you reality checked. Also a well paid job often comes with obscene demands from managers and other bosses, if you are even mildly educated on Marxism you will see how the fuckery manifests in every capitalist environment.

You will have to fight not to be exploited.

You will struggle with the ignorance and/or fear that keeps your colleagues from unionising.

So yeah don't worry about it and good luck.

My rage against capitalism due to growing up in poverty will never subside.

I currently make more than the median income where I live, but have been poor my entire life prior except childhood. Seen too much.

My wage labor position holds very little power over me now and I am doing it mainly to pay my rent, help my kid and eat. I have done so many jobs and also lost so many over the years. I own nothing and am too old to ever be able to, no matter how much I get paid.

Being late (un)diagnosed audhd I am very sensitive to injustice and have been all my life. I have no social circles that I am interested in apart from my partner and kid who are both just like me. I am dedicated to communism to my core, in my work it is the driver of most of the choices I make as I do have some power that can make a difference. I am in a position where I can spread the message so to speak.

In general, working people at any income stratum flatter their economic positions when they think they'd be worse off under socialism.

There are two ways my income privileges me: what I consume and what I have.

I consume space in a building, food, clothes, furniture, electronics. Nothing we can't make available to everyone. Some of my things are nicer, but then they get worse and need to be replaced due to planned obsolescence. Under socialism, this wouldn't be a thing -- every chair can be a nice chair that will last decades and if demand for chairs drops, good; everyone's sitting comfortably. What I'm getting at is that nice bougie shit, precluding ostentatious chandeliers filled with rare gems and gold-plated lambos, could be the floor for what we provide people. Or even briefer, we can do LGC right now.

Then there's what I have, which is a six-figure ball of investments designed to sustain a future me who, for whatever reason, doesn't have the well-paying job nor access to a social safety net. This shouldn't be necessary and it's horrifying that so many people in my country are walking a tightrope without that circus net. So fuck my portfolio, I'd gladly give it up for the revolution.

"oops all of a sudden I have made more than the global/national average income, this means I must suddenly convert to reactionary ideology in accordance with how my financial standing is the bulk of my self-conceptualization. not based at all on deep personal values so nothing at all that can be done about this.