this post was submitted on 21 Apr 2025
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I am surpringly annoyed about Americans somehow finding a way to make this about themselves.
In reality I'm much more worried about the likely counterreformist pushback that is likely about to happen. We're about to find out if a remarkably powerful organization's leader was able to seed enough support to secure a politically aligned successor, and if the answer is "no" a bunch of organizations are about to get even more ruthlessly conservative at a time when a new strain of fascism is seeking moral support. The Catholic Church has been here before. It didn't go well.
"Francis appointed nearly 80% of the cardinal electors who will choose the next pope, increasing the possibility that his successor will continue his progressive policies, despite the strong pushback from traditionalists."
https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-has-died-vatican-says-video-statement-2025-04-21/
The catch is that he did not appoint by ideology. His appointments were mainly based on the guys doing work for poor people, for migrants, and on them doing their jobs in the global south.
Quite a few of these he made cardinals are somewhat conservative in their views, especially regarding sexuality
It helps a bit that typically those that have more compassion tend to be more liberal, but in general even the more liberal Catholics tend to be somewhat conservative
I mean, there are catholic priests and officials that are very liberal - they do exist. But those people do usually not even get into a position as a bishop, so they are not on the table to potentially become cardinals.
Yeah. It's more than annoying, especially as it's the same old Vance joke again and again and again. Which isn't even clever.
I am not a Christian by any means but I worked with them quite often. Francis did change a lot of things and while he wasn't in no way perfect - he did have his drawbacks, for a fucking pope he was much better than anyone before him within the last few hundred years. People (especially on the internet)nowadays expect other people, especially political leaders to "check all their boxes" and if one thing is not going as far as they want, they are alienated.
Often I have the impression that as long as someone is not going "all the way" in the right direction they are seen as bad as someone who does not do anything at all or goes in the wrong direction. (Which is ironic because the church itself has evolved past the "saint or sinner" directive)
Francis has been going in the right direction probably 60% of the way and 10% in the wrong direction. Is the Catholic church there yet? No. Is there a big chance it might turn back? Yes. Would he been elected if he was so reformist it was sure he would topple everything and go 100%? Surely not.
But he did much more than any of his predecessors did.
Any much more most commenters do.
Besides: It's okay to feel sorry for an old man dying. That's called fucking compassion. I work in healthcare and have seen a lot of people die. I feel sorry for almost all of them.
In the end a human has died. Period.
John XXIII was pretty progressive, wouldn't you think?
So progressive there's an anti Vatican II movement in America
I'm entitled to not feel sorry for the unelected ruling class dying. Whether it's the queen, or it's the pope.
Both brought more misery than did good. The existance of them both were a net negative to the world.
Fuck the church.
The pope is elected in his country
I don't feel that sorry when an old person dies, they've lived their life, and dying is a natural part of the cycle. I do feel bad for those they left behind, who will miss them dearly.
I feel worst for young people who die before their time, and never got to experience the life they planned for, that's a true tragedy.
Great post. Holding the leash on the next Pope would be a huge strategic coup for the MAGA Nazis, and too much of a temptation to resist. There are no coincidences in politics, and dropping dead immediately after Couchfucker's visit is to close to not be suspicious.
I expect a full court press by the MAGA Nazis to have their hand-picked creep as the next Pope, and they will make all sorts of threats to accomplish it. In the end, if the Vatican chooses someone other than the MAGA Nazi candidate, Catholics will suddenly become one more persecuted political democraphic in America.
The joke about Vance killing him? I don't think people mean it as a joke. That's how the mob-like tactics work. It's a very real consideration. Organized crime is intertwined deeply in American government and geopolitics.
Shit even the Vatican was wrapped up in mafia stuff in the past and probably still is.
Sorry but I used AI for this;
"The Vatican has been associated with mafia connections, particularly during the papacies of Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II. These connections have been linked to financial scandals and criminal activities involving figures like Michele Sindona and Roberto Calvi. Sindona, a reputed international mafia chieftain, was appointed as the Vatican banker by Pope Paul VI, leading to significant financial disasters and frauds. Calvi, the head of Banco Ambrosiano, was also deeply involved in money laundering and had ties to the mafia and the Vatican Bank under the leadership of Archbishop Paul Marcinkus. Marcinkus faced criticism from Pope John Paul II's inner circle but was protected by the Pope, highlighting the complex relationships within the Vatican during this period.
In recent years, efforts have been made to address these issues. The Vatican created a working group in honor of Rosario Livatino, a Catholic judge killed by the mafia, to study the expulsion of criminal organizations from the Catholic Church. These initiatives reflect ongoing efforts to separate the Church from criminal influences and to promote integrity within its financial and organizational structures.
The Vatican's financial dealings have long been a source of scandal and embarrassment, contributing to a "black legend" that mars the Church's image. Pope Francis has been particularly active in reforming Vatican finances, centralizing control over Vatican assets to reduce the risk of corruption and illegal activities.
Despite these efforts, concerns about mafia influence persist, with investigations and arrests involving mafia members and their alleged cooperation with the Vatican Bank."
And trump....
"Donald Trump has been linked to organized crime figures throughout his career. He has been accused of doing business with and receiving favors from the Mafia during his early years as a developer in New York City. For instance, Trump used concrete supplied by companies controlled by the Mafia to build his properties, including Trump Tower, at a time when the concrete industry was under Mafia control.
Trump's lawyer, Roy Cohn, had ties to several Mafia bosses, and Cohn introduced Trump to some of these figures. Trump also had business dealings with individuals who had connections to organized crime, such as John Staluppi, a "made" member of the Colombo crime family, and Kenneth Shapiro, who worked for Philadelphia mobster Nicodemo "Little Nicky" Scarfo.
In 2013, Trump admitted on David Letterman's show that he had encountered "characters" associated with organized crime during his time in New York, but claimed he tried to stay away from them.
These allegations have been detailed in various books and articles, including Wayne Barrett's biography "Trump: The Deals and the Downfall" and a book titled "'MAFIA' Don: Donald Trump's 40 years of Mob ties" by H.B. Glushakow."
Organized crime is a key player in national and geopolitics. It never went away, they got better at it. And corrupted officials got better at hiding them. America is probably currently dominated by organized crime right now.
There are four main rulers of humanity, nations/politicians, organized religions, 1% wealth business, and organized crime. They all mingle and all manipulate the poor and vulnerable to gather followers, soldiers, and sycophants in order to maintain control. It's very real war happening.
Oh yeah, the death of an 88-year-old man who has been suffering from serious medical issues for months is so odd and unexpected that it is more reasonable to propose that the vice-president of the US personally killed him.
Vance is actually a secret agent that killed the Pope, no one would suspect the murder of a dying man! It's like a bad Tom Clancy novel.
I don't expect a conservative backlash, on the contrary Francis's Pontificate has weakened the conservative wing considerably. Given that 80% of the voting cardinals were appointed by Pope Francis, I would expect them to elect a successor that continues in the same direction, perhaps even a more radical one.
During his pontificate Francis also made a lot of efforts to bring in new groups into the corridors of power. Not only by his appointment of cardinals, but also e.g. by reforming the Curia with Praedicate evangelium.
Compared to the iron grip the reactionaries held before my understanding is you're right. That doesn't mean that wing is going to get away with a continuist choice. I mean, it's more likely than it used to be, but I'm not making a call until the Habemus Papam.
As a non-Catholic American, I have the same worry for the global geopolitics. It just so happens that the united states is part of those geopolitics.
It sure feels like the tides are turning conservative everywhere, but apparently a Filipino progressive is a favorite to be next
We'll see where it goes. They aren't exactly transparent about these things, and they've been arguing among themselves for a while. We'll know with the white smoke, I suppose.
There is a roman saying, "the one who enters conclave as the pope [to be] leaves it as a mere cardinal"
Bummer. Then I guess it’ll be another Italian.
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.
I'm not Catholic, and i don't follow this stuff closely, but I've seen a LOT of popes come and go, and as far as I remember, the chosen pope has NEVER been the early favorite. Anybody whose name is being knocked around right now is unlikely to be the final choice, recently-historically speaking.
A very old one indeed. It's never certain how conclaves will go.
I think in terms of the church the term "conservative" does not necessarily align with the political understanding. The largest shift in the church is demographic. White Europeans are loosing power rapidly in the catholic church. Subsequently the catholic church will align less and less with "Western" conservatives, and their imperialist understanding of geopolitics.
I expect to see much more opposition of "christian conservative" politicians in Europe towards the catholic church.
Ironically just yesterday the president of the German federal parliament of the "christian conservative" CDU told the Churches to shut up about politics.
It is not ironic, half of Germans are protestants.
Nope. Half of Germans (47%) don't have a confession. 21% of Germans are protestants.
She is describing herself as catholic though and even studied catholic theology.Her attack was directed at all churches, not just the catholic church.
More specifically she said "the churches shouldn't be another NGO" and then gave examples as to what they shouldn't talk about. So the idea is already that "NGO"s are something bad and civil society voicing political stances is bad. But then religious institutions commenting on how politics are in violation of the values the religion teaches, seems to be particularly disdained. This is also historically worrisome as the churches in the GDR used to be hailed for taking a stance against the regime and there is a lot of stories, how the churches in the third Reich would have taken stance, although i am not sure if the ratio of opposition/silence/collaboration is accurately represented in those stories.
I'm waiting for someone to suggest that a it's time for the first woman pope.
Haha I was thinking that, but there’s no way. And that’s a problem
Me too, bud. Me. Too. Alas, there is no escaping them for me. I do wish more Americans could travel abroad and see the world beyond our borders. I would wager fewer than 20% of Americans have been 50 miles from our borders and it can lead to a pretty insular world view.
Should we make it about a religion that's known for pedophile priests and them being protected? Or about how religion is a long con scam of power and wealth that has been the leading cause of war and persecution for centuries upon centuries?
Granted, by all appearances, I believe he seemed to be a pretty good guy. Hopefully the next pope will be as good. Take what you can while religions still exist, I suppose.
Yes.
Yes, you should.
Because as much as you see it as a domestic throwaway denomination among many, they are extremely and increasingly overrepresented in developing countries (and a couple of European ones as well).
So if you want to know which way the use of contraceptives, the position on gay people or the express support for neofascism is going to go in Africa this is relevant.
It is not about the US or their opinions. And I say this as an atheist.