this post was submitted on 25 Apr 2024
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What these dorks don't understand is that "Han" is basically a floating signifier; it's more akin to a term like "European" or "westerner" than it is a specific ethnic group like Sicilian is.
The Han ethnicity is a melting pot or umbrella term for a really wide array of (sub)ethnicities that exist within it because ethnic groups were either dominant at the time and became part of the group or they were subsumed into it over the course of millennia.
I think this whole thing is just westerners universalising their own local experience and projecting it onto China - they aren't eradicating poverty they're just cooking the books, they don't trust their government because all (my) government is untrustworthy, they can't be making immense strides in infrastructure because ours is crumbling so everything they build must also be tofu dreg construction etc.
I'm not saying that there's no ethnic prejudice that exists in China - I'd be utterly floored if there wasn't any. But to make a tall claim like China being ethnosupremacist requires a lot of evidence and I'm not convinced that most Han people even identify closely with that label rather than their region or their particular subgroup so I think it's a real stretch.
"Han" is also extremely difficult to draw a clear boundary around to gatekeep since there's so much linguistic, cultural, and physical diversity within that group.
There's at least two major dialects and literally countless local dialects, variations on style of dress, food, customs, festivals, even ways of playing common games like majong that makes it extremely difficult to separate out a "Han" identity from a "Chinese" identity. Physically, I have Han friends who are darker in complextion than my Vietnamese friends, some taller than most Euros, etc etc.
The point is that anyone who speaks a Chinese language and understands Chinese culture could very easily self-identify as Han and literally nobody could say otherwise.
Conversely, within the PRC it's actually non-Han minority status that is gatekept because of the generous subsidies and additional rights (preferential university entry, exemption from family planning policies, etc) which are given to minorities.
The One Child Policy is especially illustrative of this point - minorities were completely exempted from this Policy whereas the majority Han group was governed by it. What kind of Ethnofascist suppresses births in the group they supposedly think is superior?
It's a bit goofy but it's the least potentially bad system. The alternatives are either calipers level "ethnography" or keeping registers of people by ethnicity which could fall into the wrong hands if something goes wrong.
True. Personally, I just want to be able to go to the Halal university cafeteria for delicious food.
The issue with this is that libs will say "Han" is analogous to "White" in that there's tonnes of ethnicities within "White" but that doesn't stop someone being a white supremacist. It's an argument I have seen from the libs that are less stupid but still buried waist deep in the anti china propaganda.
The key difference being that historically whites spent a whole bunch of time and resources trying to gatekeep whiteness whereas China spent a lot of time and resources trying to sinicize people into "Han" status.
If they hit me with this argument I just point to the one child policy and ask for examples of white supremacist countries passing laws limiting white births.
Uhhhh literally every single day in europe I hear people talk about how those damn migrants need to ~~assimilate~~ integrate into our society lol. 2 faced pieces of shit literally all engage in that.
Translation: speak our language but only when spoken to.
A lot of supposed sensible middle class Europeans have a weird conception about multiculturalism, where they genuinely believe that people who migrate to their countries (or come as refugees) should immediately bow down to the superiority of "European culture", and begin dressing, speaking and acting exactly like majority. I know personally that a lot of the good, decent people I grew up around abhor racism (in the sense that they dislike the overtly fascist parties, of which we have far too many) while still spouting all the same right wing talking points as the far right. They will celebrate in public when the völkish fascist party have their worst election results ever, while ignoring that pretty much every party outside of the fringe left have completely adopted their policies.
A Han person and Hui person from the same province probably have more in common than two Han people from a few provinces away (or god forbid, across the north-south divide).
I know Cantonese people who think Vietnamese people are closer to them than some Dongbeiren.
Oh yeah totally. I have a Vietnamese friend who looks more "Chinese" than my Cantonese friend who looks more "Vietnamese".
The north south divide is real man. When I lived in Shanghai before internet shopping became common, I had to go back north to get clothes because they don't stock stuff in my size down south.
That guy in particular is probably a han supremacist tho.
They are more Cantonese chauvinists than Han supremacists, especially once you hear the shit they say about the Hakka.
The concept of a Cantonese chauvinist is really funny to me for some reason. Like, logically I can resumably guess what it would entail, but it's really funny to draw the line at being compared those godforsaken heathens up in Shandong or in Sichuan
Yup. In all my years working/living/visiting the only context the word ever comes up is when discussing historical facts. In general most chinese follow the rule of three, meaning you are considered to be wherever the 3rd generation, ie your grandparents, are from. So it doesn't matter that I was born in Amerikkka and have lived here most of my life, since my grandparents were from Shandong that's what most Chinese people will tend to identify me as past introductions.
To go off on the point about projection a thing I've personally noted living in both countries is that when it comes to the issues of racism the entrenched nature of it in the western social consciousness and political establishment makes it a much different beast. Like there's no political party in china that has a platform based on the disenfranchisement of a minority group and goes around advertising the fact that the first thing they'll do when in power is to bus them out of the country. As such while there are undoubtedly racist individuals within China, I can think of one particular family member of mine who may hold such opinions, there is no concentration of said racism or a purposeful consolidation of that sort of sentiment towards larger more dangerous actions like here in the west. Considering the fact that most western countries were and to some lesser extent still are ethnostates when it comes to who holds actual power in governance, its not surprise they tend to project that thought onto China.
Yeah. In my experience in east Asia racism is generally much more socially-acceptable in the sense of terms that are used and what's publicly acceptable to express as an opinion.
Meanwhile I live in what is undeniably one of the most racist countries in the world - not quite on the same level as Israel or South Africa but really uncomfortably fucking close (y'know how there are jokes about talking racism with a person from western Europe and it all being fine up until you mention Romani people? That's what people are like in this country, except for pretty much every race or nation - they'll agree that racism is detestable, just as long as you don't ask them to talk in any kind of detail about west Asia, south Asia, east Asia, central Europe, eastern Europe, Africa, south America...) it's really frowned upon (mostly) to be openly racist here but as long as you're somewhat quiet about it or you frame it in the right terms it's totally fine.
Here we prefer our genocidal ethnosupremacist state to be nice and prim and proper - politeness is the most important factor to us because we need to conceal our virulent white supremacism even from ourselves. Policy though, especially foreign policy, that can be whatever it likes and concerns about human rights and international law be damned.
I think that's the biggest difference in my eyes - I'll get called a gweilo in Hong Kong or I'll have a Japanese person tell me that I eat noodles like a Korean dog. But that ain't worth shit compared to the atrocities that my native country has wrought upon the world in its enduring legacy of white supremacism. (Gonna make a conceptual distinction between Imperial Japan and modern Japan here for argument's sake, although I'm standing on shaky ground doing so, but you get the picture.)
I dunno i just care much less about words than I used to when I was a lib. Sure I work pretty hard to avoid causing offence and I work to avoid words that are overly oppressive and that play into stuff like toxic masculinity but at the same time, on some level, it's really not high priority to me compared to what else is going on.
Even if, if, China was a Han-supremacist ethnostate - what are you gonna do about it, and if you're a westerner then what grounds do you stand on to make such an accusation and, more to the point, what are you doing about the white supremacism in your own backyard exactly?
Libs treat political concerns like bumper stickers - you just slap one that has the right wording on and dust your hands off, satisfied in the knowledge that you've done your part.
I'm always the first person who expresses disdain for political analogy that's used in the place of political analysis so you'll have to excuse my hypocrisy here but, if you'll indulge me:
Y'know those infowarrior rides that progressives mock which are plastered with a pastiche of weird, niche political concerns that the owner doesn't actually know jack shit about - Stop 5G, Death Before Vaxx, Just Say No To Adrenochrome, Obama's Birth Certificate was Faked, Fluoridation Will Kill Our Nation... idk the rest but you get the picture, right?
How is that different in a qualitative way from those copy-pasted paragraphs that mostly the progressive libs regurgitate on social media that are like:
Free Hong Kong
Free East Turkistan
Free Tibet
Ban TikTok
etc. etc.?
Seems like either group is convinced that these things are the most pressing issues of today's world, at least right up until you ask them a few basic questions about these subjects and you get blank stares and some "Either you're with us or you're against us 😡😡" kinda defensive statements.
Like if you pressed them on it and said that East Turkestan only lasted about as long as the confederacy did (and only when you count up every month, despite the fact that the first half a year that it existed for occurred a decade before the next few years that it sprang back up for) and ask if they think that the ex-confederate states also deserve their independence they get really confused because that sounds wrong on an intuitive level but they don't know any better because they just assumed that it was always East Turkestan up until recently.
That evergreen bit from Kwame Ture about the man who hates snakes was wrong but only because he applied it In too narrow a way; at a conservative estimate this is how it is for a solid half of all political discourse in the west, as far as I can tell.
https://youtu.be/Tiy_ViFcTNw?t=8m15s
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
It was only recently that there was a Han (meta)cultural revival. Before then there was a big danger in parts of pre-revolutionary culture disappearing, while minority culture was being preserved. Look, for instance at the historical accuracy of the average Chinese Kung Fu flick vs today.
100% correct. most americans are so thoroughly poisoned by capitalist realism that they believe unconsciously that it is impossible for a government to improve its society. so when they encounter evidence that china has done just that, their brains short circuit and they are forced to conclude the evidence is made up. depressing
Death to America
reminds me of the way Westoids talk about Africa like it's one giant country/ethnicity. no, it's like 1000s of ethnicities!