Sales have slowed because dealers are selling above MSRP still.
this post was submitted on 21 Dec 2023
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Sales have not slowed though. These articles are full of shit. "their year-over-year growth rate" has slowed, not sales. Sales numbers are still increasing. Just not increasing as wildly as they were in the past.
Charge time, charging infrastructure, and price are the things keeping me from getting an EV.
Regarding the first two, I find charging my EV at home means I rarely have to consider public charging. I’ve started to find stopping at the gas station way more inconvenient.
When I lived in the city, I maintained charge with a standard 120v outlet. In a rural area, I am doing well with a 240v (15a).
12 hour+ road trips are the only thing I hesitate on much anymore — sometimes I love the EV road trip, and other times I’m just looking to make good time.
It's a problem for those that cannot charge at home. My apartment complex will not install chargers and I have no easy way to run a charger myself.
That's not to say your point does not stand, but it's still not a reality for folks like me quite yet. After my last car was totaled (RIP), I went with a hybrid. Pretty good fuel economy (35-45mpg in the city, 50-60 on the highway) and it hasn't given me any issues so far.
If I still need a car by the time this one bites the dust, then I would definitely consider if an EV would fit my needs.
There will be laws if there aren't already where you are that will require apartment buildings to install chargers if a tenant wants one, at the tenants cost.
There will then also be incentives for that, making it easier.
Its too obvious a problem to do nothing about with the transition goals in place.
Edit: also if they're such dicks about an install you might even be able to install a portable charger that you can remove when you leave, or have it just be a plug. You don't necessarily need to pay for a permemant fixture level 2 smart charger.
That would be big for EV infrastructure. I see where there is a push for such regulations now after looking it up after reading your reply, but that was not a thing when I needed it. Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to get an EV when I already have a car right now.
Before I bought my hybrid, I looked into the portable chargers and the parking spots are too far away from where I can access an outlet. But they would work for other folks, so it does open up the possibility for more people.
at the tenants cost.
Jeez, who wants to foot that bill so the next guy doesn't?
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We leased a PHEV, in part, because of this. The other half was finding an EV that comfortably fit 5 people for road trips (live in the western US).
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Those and battery range as well for me are still issues. I'm sure in 5 years at least some of these problems will be solved. Though I doubt the price of EVs would come down to a reasonable point any time soon.
A lot of manufacturers are working towards a cheaper EV, they just don't know how to make a good profitable cheap EV yet. That's why they're doing the bigger more expensive ones first, so they can figure out how to do it cheaply, and also gives themselves time for all the infrastructure they're building like battery factories to come online which will also reduce cost.
There's a few cheaper ones out there like the Bolt, but GM lost money on that. It was just to get the brand out there and learn how to make EVs and get some ZEV credits. It's why they never went large scale with it.
But it's coming. In 5 years there will be plenty of cheaper EVs, and more of the consumer infrastructure will be improved too.
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EV’s are simply too expensive for the middle class. Sales will take off when the price comes down.
Cars should be expensive. It's insane that trucks are the number one selling vehicle. That shit should cost $100, 000.
This right here. Why buy an EV when I can get an Acura for like $24k? Once they become comparable in price to the cheapest ICE cars then sales will boom.
I've had a hybrid, 2013 Fusion, which would get ~40MPG. Now I have a PHEV 2015 Fusion, and with our driving habits, it does ~53MPG overall.
However.
We bought the 2015 with about 36K miles on it, and at that time, the plug-in battery range was about 20 miles. Today, at almost 90K miles, that range is down to 10 or 11. Replacing the battery module (which includes both the PHEV and hybrid batteries, they're separate components in the electrical system, but come together in one module) is about $10K just for the part. The car is worth less than that today.
My hesitation to buy a fully electric vehicle is because I don't want to find myself with a car that has half its original range at only 100K miles (say, six or seven years), and would cost more than a used car to repair, or have little resale value. A decent and reasonably maintained ICE car should easily go 160K miles (perhaps a lot more) without having to have a repair on that scale done.
New EVs have a buffer built into the battery so that as it degrades, the extra capacity unlocks and range will stay the same for the length of the warranty period (5-8 years or so). 50% observed capacity loss wouldn't happen until north of 300k miles I think
I'm sure that because my experience is limited, there's things I need to learn - but I definitely understand people's hesitation to jump to an EV in the absence of that knowledge.
I'm hesitant for winter use.... If it's parked outside for several days in the cold without plugging it in, will I be stranded when I return to the vehicle? My understanding is that they often have a heater to keep the batteries warm, but that eats up your range over time. I feel like the technology right now is great for cities and milder climates (which is most people, let's be fair).
Can I drive 100-200kms, park it, and then leave it for 3-4 days and then still have that 100kms range when I return, even in the winter (-5°C to -15°C being an average day)? I understand my usage is not typical and most of the time an EV would do the trick just fine, I just can't afford two vehicles...
You'd need an EV with a pretty large battery to drive a total of 200-300kms without charging over a few days in that cold. It would be an expensive model to achieve that.
If that was truly your driving situation, as an avid EV proponent, I'd suggest you not get one. At best, you'd barely manage it. At worst it would end up costing a fortune for tows, additional electric set up (adding a plug at your destination), or tons of hours waiting to charge. It would be an overall shitty experience.
Yeah, I'm really hoping the technology improves in the next decade to the point where EVs are viable for that sort of thing.
I'm in Canada and we're looking to have all new vehicles sold be zero emission by 2035. Plug-in hybrids with at least an 80km range will count as zero emission though, and that does seem like a perfectly fair compromise that would work for me.
You’d need an EV with a pretty large battery to drive a total of 200-300kms without charging over a few days in that cold. It would be an expensive model to achieve that.
What makes you say that? What is an EV doing while parked in the cold for a few days that's any different than when it's parked in warm weather for a few days? Range is definitely impacted by cold weather, but that's mostly from heating the battery pack up to an optimal temperature for efficiency and durability, which it wouldn't need to do if it's parked with the battery pack contactors open.
Though I agree with your broader point. If you don't have charging at home (even if it's a standard household plug,, honestly that's good enough if it's sitting for a few days) , it really can be more hassle than anything else.
As someone who had a BMW i3 across four homes - a townhome with our own garage, an apartment with four charging spots for a hundred-ish residents, a 200+ unit condo with ZERO charging, and a nightmarish situation to ever have any added, and now a house with a garage... yeah don't bother if you don't have L1 or L2 charging at home or work.
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I’m hesitant for winter use… If it’s parked outside for several days in the cold without plugging it in, will I be stranded when I return to the vehicle? My understanding is that they often have a heater to keep the batteries warm, but that eats up your range over time. I feel like the technology right now is great for cities and milder climates (which is most people, let’s be fair).
The battery heating isn't gonna be on when the car is parked and sitting there for a few days. Only when the car is on, unless you decide to configure it to pre-heat everything for you (and even then, that'll just be the cabin, not the whole battery system). If it's sitting there,
Can I drive 100-200kms, park it, and then leave it for 3-4 days and then still have that 100kms range when I return, even in the winter (-5°C to -15°C being an average day)? I understand my usage is not typical and most of the time an EV would do the trick just fine, I just can’t afford two vehicles…
I'd guess about a 20-25% range reduction in -15 C weather, depending a lot on what specific EV. So if you need to be able to drive 200km in the winter, park it for a few days, then drive another 100km before you can plug it in anywhere, look at EVs with 400km range, which I feel like most new EVs on the market already have.
This article seems to lay out some really good testing on this exact topic: https://www.whatcar.com/news/electric-car-best-winter-range/n24274
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Too bad most of them aren't plug-in hybrids. Including mine. If I could have plugged in my Prius every morning, I would have used almost no gas, because my former job's commute was 10 minutes.
PHEVs are really what manufacturers need to build until the charging infrastructure is there. We went from filling gas 2x/month to 1/quarter. We’re in EV mode 90% of the time.
Also, with EVs they really need to throw in level 2 charger installation in (yeah, I know not everyone owns their housing situation). That would help A LOT.
I've been saying this for 25 years. PHEV is the bridge that carries the infrastructure forward.
I remember when we all ignored you 25 years ago. What a travesty, how right you were. We should have listened to you back then, when you were telling us that PHEVs were the bridge. You didn't sound crazy at all on those AOL chat rooms.
Spot on, except it was ICQ and bbs's.
I recognize that came off as douchey, like I'm smarter because I said it first, but I only meant that I strongly agree and have done for a very long time.
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The most important thing for EV is to get a solid footing in the used car market. As much as manufacuters try to sell you on the idea that a car is a lifestyle choice, for most people it's just tool. Primaraly to get to and from your workplace. It has to be cheap and reliable. The biggest workforce in any developed nation is the upper low - lower middle class. Most of them can only afford used cars. The first manufacturer to implement measures to make 4-8 year old EVs a viable alternative to combustion engine vehicles will most likely be king for least 2 years till everybody else catches up.
Or to sell a new one cheap enough. In China you can buy a decent brand new EV for ~$15k. Just like a base (no carpet, airbags, power windows, or anti-lock brakes) Toyota Helix pickup is sold outside the US for ~$10k.
Helix episode of top gear was the peak of that show
It MIGHT have something to do with the fact that manufacturers are pricing their electrics like high end cars and not releasing the mid tier car that middle America wants and can afford.
Well yeah, hybrid technology works well on most models. Better mileage and sometimes better power with few downsides.
The downside is complexity. EV’s are simple with a lot less parts. Hybrids have the parts of a gas car plus the parts of an EV.
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Do you mean better range? You cant get better mileage than 0 gallons to the mile.
I meant better mileage than internal combustion, yeah sometimes as low as zero if the hybrid allows electric-only.
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EVs need to unify their charging solutions and governments need to expand the charging infrastructure while actually keeping it maintained.
If you don't own a house with a garage it's but practical to own a full EV. Throw in range anxiety and fears of defending battery life over time and it makes sense that people want hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicles.
I bought a PHEV. It feels like the sweet spot. I can charge and do 90% of my driving on electricity, if I want to, since most of my driving is shorter range commuting. But, I can also take it on long road trips without fighting for charging infrastructure or having long downtime between charges. It gets great gas mileage even without plugging in. Actually, the gas mileage is so good that it’s more expensive to drive on electric most of the time.
I looked at PHEVs before landing on just getting an EV. I don't understand why they have such small batteries. The ones I looked at said they could do like 15-18 miles on electric. I feel like if that was 30-36 then it'd be usable, but half that didn't do much for me.
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With Toyota touting 700+ miles on an upcoming solid-state battery architecture, it's hard to justify a 250 mile EV that runs $50k (Toyota bz4), plus good luck finding one. Or you can roll the dice on reliability and go for a Volkswagen with a 275 mile range for $45k. It just seems like waiting is the smart consumer move, and getting a PHEV is the best option right now.
On a recent vacation my family rented a Tesla, and the place we were had limited infrastructure to support it.
I had several takeaways:
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The drivetrain of an electric vehicle is fantastic, eventually it's the future all cars will have
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The charging infra and paradigm we have right now would be limiting in some use cases
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A plug-in hybrid gets you most of the upsides of an electric drivetrain and the ability to run all-electric for in-town errand running, but also has the ability to refuel at the rate of chugging gasoline into a tank
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We don't want a Tesla, their QC is sub-par and it's only a matter of time before real car companies ramp up on the EV and bring their QC chops to the game
One day, when batteries are a common standard and can be swapped like you swap a propane cylinder for your grill, I will have no reason to want a PHEV, we'll be able to ditch the dead-weight gas engine foreverrr
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