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submitted 2 weeks ago by Objection@lemmy.ml to c/slop@hexbear.net
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[-] dead@hexbear.net 60 points 2 weeks ago

Read Kropotkin

For the people who haven't read the bread book, Kropotkin makes arguments against child labor starting in the first chapter. He says that it is unfair that children of capitalists receive inheritance but the labor of the worker is inherited by the capitalist. That is unfair that children of workers have to work in the factory starting at the age of 13. Throughout the book, he says that children should not work in factories or mines. He says that children should receive meals from the society for free. In chapter 4, he talks about how artisans take advantage of working class children through apprenticeships (ie internships) by paying them less than the value their labor produces. In chapter 12, he talks about how capitalists would rather employ children than grown adult because children are willing to be payed less, which causes grown men to be jobless. He says the use of child labor makes society into a joke.

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 38 points 2 weeks ago

You obviously missed the footnote where he said it doesn't count if the kids are brown, far away, and the stuff they're making is really tasty.

[-] Evilsandwichman@hexbear.net 25 points 2 weeks ago

he talks about how capitalists would rather employ children than grown adult because children are willing to be payed less, which causes grown men to be jobless. He says the use of child labor makes society into a joke.

MAGA wondering how to deport children

[-] ComradeRat@hexbear.net 20 points 2 weeks ago

read Kropotkin

Its very funny that they used Kropotkin instead of Marx, who actually opposed banning child labour

[-] quarrk@hexbear.net 23 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Just so this isn’t left hanging, from my understanding he was against child labor in the conditions of factory labor. The extent that he supported child labor, it was something like apprenticeship alongside education. Maybe not even “work” properly so called, but productive labor nonetheless. It is in line with the general belief of communists that labor is not inherently exploitative, but that under capitalist conditions, it becomes exploitative. Communists are pro-labor, labor as a fundamental human activity, something that can be positive. Hence for example the massively misrepresented Soviet labor camps, which basic idea is that consciousness is derived from practice; therefore you enforce a reformed practice in order to produce a reformed consciousness.

[-] ComradeRat@hexbear.net 10 points 2 weeks ago

As I understand it, Marx advocated for children to continue working in factories, under capitalism, as useful for changing society. I agree that eventually socialism and communism will abolish work (wage-labour) and create factories very different to todays factories, but I dont think its relevant to what marx is talking about when he opposes banning child labour in e.g.

Critique of Gotha Programme:

A general prohibition of child labor is incompatible with the existence of large-scale industry and hence an empty, pious wish. Its realization -- if it were possible -- would be reactionary, since, with a strict regulation of the working time according to the different age groups and other safety measures for the protection of children, an early combination of productive labor with education is one of the most potent means for the transformation of present-day society.

Where he talks about the abolition of child labour as reactionary, even in 1870s germany. He isnt advocating children working just in the future communism, but as inevitable under capitalism and anyways beneficial for changing society

[-] Sabbo@hexbear.net 42 points 2 weeks ago

Kropotikin? Least problematic theorist of that generation Kropotikin? The guy so likeable that the famously anti Anarchist Vladimir Lenin declared a ceasefire so Anarchists could attend his state funeral Kropotikin? Ending serfdom Kropotikin? Wife guy Kropotikin?

Child labor is like the least Kropotikin thing I can imagine.

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[-] infuziSporg@hexbear.net 34 points 2 weeks ago

That comment doesn't hold up to basic critical thinking.

If writing off the loss is the same to a capitalist as selling the product, there would be no incentive for the capitalist to sell it, because that involves more complications than just claiming the write-off. By necessity, any writeoff that is equal or greater than the sale value of the product will result in companies limitlessly scamming the government (or insurance). It follows that spoiled or stolen product is some degree of loss to the company.

"The capitalist still wins" is equating larger wins to smaller wins.

[-] WhatDoYouMeanPodcast@hexbear.net 10 points 2 weeks ago

I predict and have priced in the chance that the money line either goes to 0 or 1 million. Therefore anything that happens means that I win because it's according to keikaku

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[-] frisbird@lemmy.ml 30 points 2 weeks ago

It looks like the person is saying that boycotting chocolate produced by child labor is not an effective way of ending child labor, which is correct, especially in the case where the child labor produced the raw cacao and the finished chocolates are made in another country.

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 37 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

That doesn't justify buying it. "No ethical consumption under capitalism" is not a "get out of responsibility" card that you can use to justify whatever you feel like, which is exactly how they're using it.

[-] frisbird@lemmy.ml 15 points 2 weeks ago

You're making an idealist argument that somehow, despite your choice having literally no material impact that the choice still matters. That's pure moralizing.

I know we're all raised to believe in morality like this, but it's quite useless. I was not immoral for being raised in America on stolen land, nor were my parents, or their parents. We shouldn't have been in that situation, and we should have been dispossessed of our property and made to participate in reconciliation and reparations to the people we displaced, but that wasn't an option because our historical context does not allow for that to be an individual choice. I can't fix that problem with my choice to live or not live in a home on stolen land. In fact, I can do a lot more good living on stolen land and using my privilege to collaborate with the indigenous peoples and first nations to bring about the conditions of their liberation than I can by living under a bridge or self-deporting.

You say "get out of responsibility" like somehow consuming chocolate where the original cacao was harvested by child laborers is literally something one can respond to by making purchasing choices. But the point is that one does not have responsibility of this sort. The responsibility is towards the child, not the transaction, and the transaction does not help nor harm the child, as articulated by that poster. The child is no better off simply because one feels guilt or shame at their purchases, and no better off simply because some people who consume something get shamed or harassed by others. The child will be better off when the system of unequal exchange is shutdown in that particular sector, and we all have a responsibility to shut that system down. Not buying candy doesn't have any effect on that. Private boycotts do not have material consequences. Big loud public ones sometimes do. But if one actually cares about child labor in the cacao industry, one's personal moral choices about consumpitare not universalizable and one's personal responsibility is almost entirely orthogonal to one's personal consumption habits.

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 21 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

I'm not engaging further in this argument. I am not open to having my mind changed that lines of logic like, "I personally oppose the institution of slavery, but freeing my own slaves won't do anything to fix the systemic problem so I'm not going to do it" have any validity whatsoever. You and them are both dead wrong, likely because of chauvanism and privilege.

Tell it to someone else.

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[-] mrosswind@hexbear.net 14 points 2 weeks ago

You’re limiting the impact purchases have to only companies choosing to adopt more ethical labor practices. This ignores that the scale of the industry matters, and is affected by consumption. If consumers quietly started buying 50% less chocolate, companies would continue to exploit child laborers, but the amount of unethical labor that the industry could bear would be reduced.

You’re claiming to have the materialist position, but you’re ignoring that the commodities embody child labor. The idea of “voting with your wallet” is capitalist bullshit, and market trends will not transmit ethics to ceos. But there is an unbreakable link between the consumption of commodities and the labor used to make them. It doesn’t matter whether the consumers are organized, what their intent is, or if the companies are even aware of what’s happening.

Whatever buying a chocolate bar does or doesn’t say about a person’s morals, you can’t claim that it’s disconnected from the people who produced it. There are plenty of reasons why the relationship is not one to one, but you can’t make a materialist argument that raw cacao has nothing to do with finished chocolate products.

[-] frisbird@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 weeks ago

This ignores that the scale of the industry matters, and is affected by consumption. If consumers quietly started buying 50% less chocolate, companies would continue to exploit child laborers, but the amount of unethical labor that the industry could bear would be reduced.

This is literally impossible based on individual consumer choice. The chocolate industry has been developed over centuries of colonial exploitation. There are entire bodies of law governing just chocolate. Whether I or you or my neighbor is browbeat into not buying specific brands of chocolate could never reach even a 10% impact on the industry. That's never how boycotts have been effective. They are effective because they are publicly organized, very loud, and do serious reputational harm to brands and to politicians. That is to say, people had to organize to make the consequences of staying the course worse than changing course. Quiet personal morality doesn't rise to that standard.

there is an unbreakable link between the consumption of commodities and the labor used to make them. It doesn’t matter whether the consumers are organized, what their intent is, or if the companies are even aware of what’s happening.

But now you are ignoring scale. You are correct that the link is there. But you fail to recognize that even if you managed to get an entire village to stop buying those chocolates, if you didn't propagate the ideas and create a movement, your village would not even factor into the economics. There are entire counties where certain chocolates have not yet managed to establish market penetration. Losing a village of 10,000 consumers wouldn't be noticed, unless someone realized that there was some propaganda that was effective in shutting down purchasing behavior and became worried about that propaganda spreading to other locations and creating large scale problems in the future.

This is why loud boycotts sometimes win. Not because they actually hit the bottom line but because they create interest convergence whereby the people who have both the financial incentive to use child labor and the power to choose otherwise become aware that choosing otherwise has become more inline with their financial incentives. This does not happen because half the world just stops buying chocolate because of a personal moral code. It happens because a successful propaganda campaign was demonstrated to be highly effective in a small context which creates the threat of becoming highly effective in a larger context. Capitalism behaves in such a way that it will never need to reach 50% of buying behavior because by the time you have demonstrated you have an effective propaganda campaign the investors are already reallocating capital to maintain their profits.

And we've seen what doesn't work - atomizing people, ostracizing them, browbeating strangers with whom we have no relations, etc. These are the tools of oppressors. These are the tools of religious missionaries in a colonial project. We can directly moralize with people we have existing relationships with. With people we don't have relationships with, it's almost always counter productive. Instead, building relationships with more people is how we get to the position where we can engage in moral discourse with more people. Connect first, then educate, then make demands. Not the other way around.

you can’t make a materialist argument that raw cacao has nothing to do with finished chocolate products.

I never did. I simply said that the choices of an individual consumer cannot impact child labor practices and that moralizing about it won't do it either and that there is evidence spanning over a century that supports this position and also evidence that illuminates what does work and why.

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[-] LeeeroooyJeeenkiiins@hexbear.net 10 points 2 weeks ago

yea but you don't need to justify stealing it

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[-] miz@hexbear.net 28 points 2 weeks ago

boycotts are a useful tool in concert with an organized political movement (like BDS or a union of striking workers) but can be ultimately counterproductive on their own:

In short, a strong belief that ethical consumption will lead to ethical practices is not warranted – purchasing as voting is a weak feedback mechanism at best and there are other actors who are able to influence the system. The danger, however, comes in believing that this mechanism can make substantial political change. Ethical consumption gives the individual the illusion of contributing to progress; of “doing their part” by making purchasing decisions. This illusion can detract, and probably has detracted, from trying to put forward an avowedly political agenda that seeks to mobilise people collectively to make the changes they support. Instead, it individualises ethics, it individualises politics and it reaffirms us as consumers rather than citizens – it is a part of the profit-maximising, pathologically-externalising neoliberal market system that has caused many of the problems ethical consumerism seeks to alleviate, rather than being an alternative.

from The revolution will not be bought: Ethical consumption is seductive but dangerous to the values ethical consumers seek to promote

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 12 points 2 weeks ago

In short, a strong belief that ethical consumption will lead to ethical practices is not warranted

Nor does it have anything to do with my position.

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[-] LeeeroooyJeeenkiiins@hexbear.net 27 points 2 weeks ago

The only proper way to support child labor is if you consider studying to be work

[-] Le_Wokisme@hexbear.net 23 points 2 weeks ago
[-] LeeeroooyJeeenkiiins@hexbear.net 15 points 2 weeks ago

Ain't THAT the truth

[-] The_Walkening@hexbear.net 9 points 2 weeks ago

isn't it reproductive labor? IIRC work is paid and the end of the labor done is to make more money for the employer, chores aren't necessarily paid and the labor is to maintain conditions to live.

[-] LeeeroooyJeeenkiiins@hexbear.net 12 points 2 weeks ago

Not the person you responded to but i used labor and work interchangeably

I'd say it's labor, but not wage labor, and it's work, but not if you define work to be wage labor

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[-] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 22 points 2 weeks ago

From a purely consequentialist viewpoint, any boycott does fuck all to actually affect material change. Even collective boycotts aren't as effective as advertised. However, you do not have to adopt a consequentialist ethics on the level of the individual. I would argue that virtue ethics makes much more sense because at the end of the day, socialists need to convince and onboard new socialists and nobody's going to want to become socialists if the current stock of socialists can't exert basic discipline like abstaining from chocolate that doesn't even taste that good.

"You hate capitalism, yet you use iPhone. Curious." is an argument that reactionaries make, but most people who aren't socialists are swayed by this on some level. That's literally why reactionaries keep on making that stupid argument. Because it works. They don't make the same argument with cars because average people (from the US) see cars as something essential for daily life while iPhones are seen as a luxury item. The argument is "you hate capitalism, but you use nonessential commodities that wouldn't exist without capitalism, so how can you criticize capitalism while enjoying the fruits of capitalism that is not essential for daily life?"

Nobody wants to sign up to join a political movement steered by a bunch of hypocritical losers who can't exert a basic level of discipline. To use chocolate as an example, US-made chocolate doesn't even taste that good. It's like, I'm not going to take your calls for class warfare seriously if you can't even abstain from eating vomit-tasting chocolate. You bozos aren't going to be embarking on the Long March anytime soon.

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 17 points 2 weeks ago

People just have this knee-jerk reaction where because ethical consumption doesn't solve the core problem, they go to the opposite extreme of "just do whatever."

Well, voting ain't gonna fix things, but if someone comes in here talking about voting for Kamala, they'd still be called a lib. For the average American, not even living in a swing state, buying a single carton of Sabra is going to have more tangible material impact than their vote. Neither has the potential to actually solve things, but it's important to have a correct party line in one case but not the other?

I brought up the example of someone not giving up chocolate even as they're doing a publicity campaign against the company, and I guess people might see that as a "gotcha." But the point is that it breaks through this knee-jerk reaction. "Ethical consumption doesn't solve things so just do whatever - unless it directly undermines a cause you're organizing for." Is that the only exception, or is there a more general standard we should be considering?

[-] WhatDoYouMeanPodcast@hexbear.net 11 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

In my head the route back into the game after the US government bombed the shit out of labor comes from moments of consequence. It's like that Onion article where their plan is to just sit back and do nothing. Not that there's nothing to do, but if you're pinned down in a fight, you don't just beast your way back up, you wait for them to shift their weight and mess up to take advantage of it. If you have an ideology as dogwater as capitalism that only works down the barrel of a rifle then you're always going to have contradictions and moments of crisis that move the super structure or "shift their weight from pinning you".

So yeah, today all you can do is abstain from Sabra, you're pinned to the mat! But when the US neglects to man 10 military bases, the US war plans go on the black market for 50 Bitcoin, guerilla gardening starts to threaten cash crops, or some random madlib crisis happens then suddenly you are able to help push the super structure in a big way.

To that end, the Trueanon creed of just be normal seems very helpful. Wokescold works against this wincon, hypocrisy works against this wincon, not being easy to engage with works against this wincon, not being willing or able to explain leftism works against this wincon, and not finding the other people with hope for a future worth sticking around for works against this wincon. Because if something ever happens and there's a big swell of people who get the memo then suddenly you go from being pinned to having their back on the mat in kind.

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[-] BanMeFromPosting@hexbear.net 21 points 2 weeks ago

I thought the large amount of comments would be because of some lib that had wandered in to get dunked on, but it seems it's just nerds discussing theory .sicko-wistful

[-] SwagliacciTheBadClown@hexbear.net 9 points 2 weeks ago

I get a kick out of the Ace Attorney “objection!” avatar too - helps break up the dialogue. But yeah this has been a good nerd thread

[-] meatcringe@hexbear.net 7 points 2 weeks ago

We are all https://hexbear.net/u/Objection@lemmy.ml on this blessed day.

(cut me some slack, I'm still learning how to post here)

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[-] TheoryofChange@hexbear.net 16 points 2 weeks ago

Obviously people should stop buying meat, Israeli goods, items produced with child labor etc to the best if their abilities and it is extremely silly to imply otherwise, smacking of treatlerite tendencies. However as folks have pointed out individual consumption choices are not the political mechanism which will bring down child labor/Zionism/meat farming. Therefore going on endlessly about individual consumption habits instead of encouraging some kind of collective action or actually effective intervention also comes across as performative and deeply unserious. Some one who eats an occasional cheeseburger and blows up a slaughterhouse is objectively a better vegan than someone who never touches a cheeseburger and doesn't blow up a slaughterhouse.

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 weeks ago

Hard disagree. Eating meat and blowing up a slaughterhouse undermines the image and makes it look like you just wanted to blow something up. If you want to get public support, you should at least make a token effort towards nonviolent tactics even if you don't expect anything from them. This is one of the reasons Lenin argued for participation in bourgeois elections (in a communist party ofc).

[-] TheoryofChange@hexbear.net 8 points 2 weeks ago

you should at least make a token effort towards nonviolent tactics

Nothing in my comment in any way detracts from nonviolent tactics. I support collective action and effective direct interventions in all shapes and sizes. Also, blowing up something is only violent if it is occupied when you blow it up (or if it is empty because of the threat to blow it up). It is important not to conflate property destruction with violence

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[-] meatcringe@hexbear.net 9 points 2 weeks ago

Vegans should not blow up slaughterhouses. That would harm the animals inside.

[-] CharlieTheOctopus@hexbear.net 8 points 2 weeks ago

well i mean, i dont think theyre making it out of there anyways…

[-] meatcringe@hexbear.net 9 points 2 weeks ago
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[-] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 14 points 2 weeks ago

This is just the meat thing again

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 weeks ago

It started being about the meat thing, but I guess I just expected people to have a shred of decency about it when it was actual human beings.

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[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 weeks ago

Another example of how the colonial situation dehumanizes the colonized and the colonizer.

Colonizers can only look down on anyone that would personally not want to eat chocolate harvested with child labor. Even if it won't change anything, even if it's individualism with no hope of stopping child labor, we still dehumanize ourselves when we participate.

[-] Evilsandwichman@hexbear.net 11 points 2 weeks ago

I'm beginning to feel a bit embarrassed at myself now for eating chocolate if it means I'm in the same boat as this person

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[-] TheoryofChange@hexbear.net 10 points 2 weeks ago

what-time-is-it

Hell yeah, inject it directly into my veins.

[-] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 23 points 2 weeks ago

There's no struggle session here because oop is not really an anarchist and completely misread Kropotkin. They are just a radlib treatlerite and that whole thread is breaking my hitler-detector

[-] TheoryofChange@hexbear.net 8 points 2 weeks ago

Oop is indeed having a radlib treatlerite moment

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this post was submitted on 02 May 2026
105 points (96.5% liked)

Slop.

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