this post was submitted on 23 Apr 2025
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In all seriousness, what are men supposed to do with this besides feel bad?
Or is that the point?
Speak up when you see other men being abusive jerks. Use peer pressure to improve the behavior instead of excusing it.
Be aware. I am a large, semi-muscular male, if I am walking down the street and there is a woman by herself I will slow down and give her space or cross to the other side of the road. It really doesn't take much.
If it's not about you then don't worry about it
For some of us, like certain spans of the autistic spectrum, that really isn't a simple ask.
Because we do worry. We do feel empathy. We can't help but feel like we're still being lumped in.
We are already so paranoid from a lifetime of being blamed for every little deviation that it's just more of the same.
Fellow Autist here:
We are being lumped in.
I can't tell you the number of times I have gotten into arguments to defend someone's ... non conformity to societally standard gender norms, societally standard sexual preferences, societally standard cisness (?), against some MAGA hat wearing dudebro...
Only for that very person, who was present with me, as I defended them verbally against some asshole, in person...
To then, some months or weeks later, literally scream at me when something completely unrelated to any of that upset them...
... and they throw every single rhetorical device and phrase at me that they throw at actual male chauvanists, and also simultaneously attempt to deride my insufficient amount of stereotypical macho manliness.
And this wasn't a single person doing this.
It has been multiple people, many times, all self described leftists or liberals who all just immediately revert to all the insults they'd hurl at an avowed white neonazi.
Oh well, I guess I am at least used to constantly being misunderstood and shunned from society because of an inherent way that I am different from most people that I have no ability to fundamentally change.
intense deadpan stare to emphasize the galactic levels of irony
This is why all my friends are neurologically atypical.
Not to insult any neurotypicals reading this- it's just so much easier when everyone involved expects things to be stated explicitly, and when something upsetting happens, everyone assumes that you didn't mean it, there's been a misunderstanding somewhere, let's explain our side to each other, adjust our expectations, and move forward.
I second this. It's a relief to be able to talk with other people and not worry about all the social performances we're expected to keep up around neurotypicals. I can just say the things I'm trying to say and if I stumble with my words, everyone still gets my meaning. Nobody's going to take an innocent comment as an insult, just because my tOnE oF vOiCe was "off." Don't feel like making eye contact? Awesome, I don't either! If you want, we can have a full, rich conversation about our shared special interests, all while looking at literally anything except each other.
The idea is expressed for catharsis. It's only going to push awful people further into caustic masculine behaviors. So it's not actually directed at them, its target audience is other folk who have to deal with their awful behaviors.
As long as you're not unnecessarily approaching strangers in public and you build trust in your personal relationships then you can safely ignore it.
Edit: actually you kind of need to once you understand the problem being described or your mental health will take a severe hit. Talking from experience here...
"Uhhh, yes ALL MEN, why would you say not all men?"
"Uh not all of them obviously, I don't mean the good ones. If you thought I was targeting you when I said all men are bad, threats to innocent people, and need to be kept out of public spaces and valuable positions. Obviously you are a bad person."
That's the same mentality trump voters have
No this would be rage bait for trump cult members.
On top of not suggesting that making men feel bad is the point (it's not), this comment seems to provide helpful tips: https://reddthat.com/comment/18247122
What I'd also recommend is being an ally to women in your life already. If women felt more male allyship during the inside/day, then maybe they'd be less fearful of men outside/at night.
Been doing that for about two decades now.
I've gotten guys slipping roofies in girls drinks thrown outta bars.
Gotten in many verbal arguments protecting LGBTQ folks against bigots, a few came to blows.
Much more than that as well, all the worldview of an anarchist that fundamentally believes any system, at any level of society, that perpetuates injustice is itself unjust, no matter how it claims to work, worked for nonprofits helping the homeless... particularily women domestic abuse survirors...
... Doesn't matter, I am a white male, dress fairly tradtionally cishetmale most of the time, and I am now very, very used to being prejudged as potentially violent, getting insults thrown at me criticizing a worldview I don't have.
Even more ironic in that I've actually been domestically abused (physically assaulted, if that isn't clear) by a former female partner...
Wasn't ... part of tearing down the patriarchy... supposed to include encouraging men to be ok with being more vulnerable, being ok with crying, not being judged for expressing buried emotions, in a a non threatening manner?
...
Has anyone ever said to you, or have you ever said...
Wow, I didn't realize what I was saying, the way I was saying it, was hurtful to you... I'll try to be more conscious of how my actions affect those around me, in the future?
... And really, truly, mean it?
I think it's great that you've helped people in need. I'm sorry you were abused. That's awful no matter the circumstances.
I'm not sure why you're bringing up men crying and being vulnerable. I support anyone expressing their emotions in healthy ways and I've not seen people here say otherwise. Are you just sharing your personal experience or was this related to something?
I would hope most people can say yes to the last bit. It's more or less the basis of civil society.
I am not looking for validation from you, as it is obvious from the start you aren't interested in empathizing with a man, please stop talking to me like you just finished your BA in Psych or Social Work and are talking to a troubled teen.
You are intentionally playing dumb and trying to psychoanalyze me, to avoid addressing the actual totality of what I have said.
This is disrespectful.
It is a fairly basic and well understood fact that men tend to value respect and perceptions of being respected significantly more than women, on average.
...
I said what I said as a direct response to your response, to being asked:
'What are men supposed to do with this besides feel bad?'
Your response was essentially:
Men shouldn't feel bad about this.
and
Be an ally to women.
...
Ok, so...
For the first part, you are just outright denying men the capacity or right to ... feel a certain way, express emotions about an experience they had.
This is fundamentally at odds with the conception of tearing down the enforced gender normativity of patriarchy, a huge element of which is men stuffing down their emotions, being told when and how and what they're allowed to have emotions about, which is generally: suck it up buttercup, your feelings don't matter, your emotions are not valid.
You are directly mandating all men abide by this rule.
You are directly enforcing the patriarchy, toxic masculinity.
....
For the second part,
I've been an ally to women (and many others) for 20 years.
Call that my sense of honor.
So have many other men.
I gave you an anecdote, a case study of one, my lived experience of how that worked out for me.
It didn't work for me personally, and it isn't working at a broader societal scale either.
The 'gender wars' are intsensifying, male incel edgelord culture got a fascist kleptocracy elected to run the US government, more and more marriages are failing and more and more young adults have never had a serious relationship of any kind, nor even a sexual partner... and all of this is fueling a ... 'return to the Handmaid's tale' wave of politics and policies that massively infringe upon the rights of women.
Your strategy is not working.
It is not producing an inclusive, more understanding, more empathetic, more tolerant or more patient culture.
It is producing the opposite.
...
'Blame all men' is your message, your strategy, distilled into a slogan. Be wary of all of them, all the time, you never know which one could hurt you.
A more sound strategy would not alienate allies, it would be more specific, targeted, with actually useful heuristics or rules that can be practically applied so as to actually be able to discern the difference between likely ally and likely foe.
What needs to be happening is the development of a constructive dialogue... not a hardening and intensifying of recalcitrance.
... Unless your goal actually is to escalate tensions.
Sorry, got that whole Anarchist thing going on, a system's purpose is what it ultimately does, not what it claims to do.
Legitimately empathized and said I was sorry to hear about your experience, and you seemed to interpret it as me attempting to provide validation, so not sure how you think that corresponds with an unwillingness to empathize. I'm not talking to you any differently than I would talk to anyone else. If you don't like the way I talk in general you don't have to engage.
I'm not playing dumb. You just didn't make a point and I was trying to ask if you meant to make one as kindly as I could. It seems like you're attempting to now, so I'll address that.
I never said men shouldn't feel bad. Please point out when you believe I said that.
men should be allies. If you just said that men are becoming incels then I'm not sure why you think they are employing the allyship strategy. They're clearly not. I also never suggested that allyship will solve the worlds problems or that women SHOULD treat men X way. I said that if men want to know how to make it less likely women are concerned for their safety when they show up, they should engage in allyship. That's true, but not enough men are engaging in allyship. If more men did it there'd be a larger societal shift. More women interacting with more men who are allies and seeing them through that lens.
My message has never been about blaming anyone. I've never addressed how women should feel. Some women feel and act a specific way. That's the framework the discussion is taking place in. If men want suggestions as to how to make women feel safer, I have some. They do not have to listen to them. They can ignore me and the other women telling them what would help women feel safe. Not sure if you know how allyship works, but a big part of it is constructive dialogue, and right now there are women saying what would help and you seem to be more interested in arguing with them than anything else. Likely allies are not alienated by this behavior and have empathy and understanding for the position women find themselves in. They... actually extend allyship.
If me suggesting allyship towards women is eliciting this kind of response I have a legitimate concern about your actual interest in being an ally. Seems like a weird thing to be against. Writing up a whole comment to argue against... being nice to people?
What an inane take on the subject. Men are willing to help women so often that it’s a large factor in male on male violence.
This is a microcosm of the whole issue. Yes there are dangerous men and they’re often dangerous to both men and women.
The consequences are often different as men are significantly more likely to be violently assaulted, and more likely to be killed, while women are overwhelmingly more likely to be sexually harassed or sexually assaulted.
I would love to see what data you're going off of that suggests that a large factor of male on male violence is a direct result of men stepping in for the safety of a woman. Please share what source you have for this.
Regardless, even if 100% of male on male violence was somehow because a man physically put himself in the way of a woman being attacked, my advice is still sound. There'd still be plenty of women out there who experienced violence and have not experienced male allyship. Your point about men being more likely to be killed by men than a woman is doesn't really affect women's perception of men. If a woman views men as a threat, the best way to help is to demonstrate that men on the whole are not threats. It's unlikely that anything you do to make a woman on the street more comfortable will have a lasting impact on her perception of men. One of the best things you can do is show the women around you who know and believe you that you, an average man, are safe. Call out sexism in the workplace, be respectful of her boundaries. If more men did that then women would have more experience interacting with men they know are safe. This would change their perception of men as a whole. It's a whole thing. Desensitization.
You did not say anything refuting my point or even suggest an alternative. You just said that men are also targets, which is true, but not at all relevant to the question of how to make women feel safer. I'm providing the perspective of a woman who knows and regularly speaks to other women.
Here's a study.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0886260521997928
Its about 'Honor Based Violence' as it pertains to males being involved in violence against other males, when the inciting incident is a woman's honor being insulted.
Also how forced marriages harm and are used to punish non gender conforming males in hyperpatriarchichal societies.
... The study begins by basically saying that uh, no one really bothers to study this within a feminist framework, almost all existing research is geared toward how women are harmed.
That's not what that article is about, but I imagine you knew that already. 31% of the participants were experiencing it due to homophobia, 37% were because they didn't want to marry who their parents wanted, 10% were due to wanting to get rid of them due to disability. Literally none of that is at it relates to an inciting incident of female honor being insulted. The article also makes a point of mentioning how this is a patriarchal problem and how women still make up an overwhelmingly large percentage of victims. None of this proves any point about how standing up for women is somehow a huge proportion of male on male violence.
This is a tactic fascists use. Just throwing in a study with no real relation to the topic. It's to waste someone's time and energy and divert the topic.
You clearly are not engaging in good faith and I invite anyone to read that study and confirm it does not say what you are suggesting.
Hey, you know what?
You're right.
This study focuses pretty much entirely on forced marriage as a punishment for men/boys who fail to live up to hypermasculine standards.
I misread it.
... It is nearly midnight, and I lost my glasses years ago now.
Doing this whole convo on a cheap phone I bought at a gas station years ago now, many states away.
Homelessness is not fun.
Either way, yep, my bad, I did not represent this study accurately, apologies.
Maybe tomorrow I'll try to find a study that actually attempts to even document the male propensity to... act physically, and violently, on behalf of someone they care about, as compared to women...
But frankly, I am both baffled by how difficult it is to find like, statistically valid, large sample studies on this, as well as being baffled by your incredulity to the validity of this concept.
I... guess maybe a lookup of man on man v man on women v women on women assault and battery and murder statistics... if they all actually include some kind of 'why did this occur' in the records... could verify or falsify this... but it seems like I would literally have to do such a meta analysis myself.
That... or it is midnight and I am too tired to figure out how to search for such a study properly.
Either way, the... entire ingrained, toxic masculinity/patriarchy paradigm... men being both socially expected to, and being generally physically more naturally predisopsed to do acts of physical violence, often to uphold the honor of, of avenge an insult to a friend or lover...
This concept is so widely ingrained in nearly all cultures, through nearly all history... and is easily visible if one ever just... goes to a moderately busy bar or other social event with a good mix of men and women...
That I am incredulous at your incredulity of this being a phenomenon that happens, that a guy will insult another guy's girlfriend, and this will cause a fight between the two men.
I understand your desire for actual empirical numbers to work with, but I do no comprehend how you can doubt that... this is a common thing that happens quite often, it is a huge part of patriarchy and toxic masculinity itseld.
Anyway... I'm off to bed now.
I appreciate you owning up to the fact that this study does not say what you claimed it did. I have a hard time believing it could have been misread as such regardless of local time or eyesight, but at least we're on the same page.
I don't know why you're acting as though I said men have never in all of history stood up for women. I'm not making that case. I just don't have a reason to believe that makes up a majority of man on man violence. How many times have I seen that vs how many times have I seen two men fight over a spilled drink or a parking space or some other frivolous thing. I don't think the evidence is there to suggest that man on man violence is somehow secretly also the fault of women, which seemed to be that persons point.
Not sure you realize it was me you responded to elsewhere in this thread, but since you accused me of essentially patronizing you, I won't make any comments about your personal situation. I only note that because you brought it up, and I'd hate to have you point to me not mentioning it as some lack of empathy.
Man I should've read further before I read that whole study. 29 cases, 9 of which were forced marriage by family because the man was suspected to be gay... for sure not what that comment had me expecting. Glad they owned up to it.
Did you read case 16? The point of the study was to talk about male victims of violence, but then case 16 is that his family was mean to him, then kidnapped the girlfriend they didn't approve of. Jesus Christ. Definitely not what I was expecting.
Yea, unfortunately I read the whole study out of good faith. It's wild that comment has as many upvotes as it does, but just goes to show how little people actually care about the truth and how ready they are to accept anything that purports to back their own claims. Or hopefully that Lemmy is being astroturfed already and no one actually believes that, they're just sowing division.
Every case is just gross and a great example of how patriarchy harms men. I can't believe people think that they can marry off their disabled son and they'd just be effectively cared for by their new wife. Heartbreaking. I can't imagine effectively telling my child I'm sick of caring for them so I'm just giving that responsibility to someone who they don't know and who's being forced to care for them with no training or presumably forewarning.
I don't have the study, but it's so ingrained it's literally a meme. The idea of a "white knight" is based off the idea that men defend women without actually having idea whats going on. The "how can she slap" meme came from a show where a woman slapped a guy when she wasnt allowed to, and it shocked him so he slapped her back. Instantly every dude in the crowd got up and started beating his ass, even though she literally assaulted him outside of the rules of the show. There's also the trope of guys doing dumb stuff "because love" or to show off to women.
I'm didn't read enough to follow his point nor yours outside of that, but there is definitely a point to be made that men do tend to defend women from strangers, just not from friends.
Memes are not studies. If you can't at least find one to support the point I'd hazard it was never true. You can't base an argument around a single video, or even a collection of them. Data is generally needed.
White knighting is pretty exclusively used in a derogatory manner, which would indicate that most people think it's not the default and that it's cringe.
Men doing stupid things for women is not the fault of women. It also does not translate to defending women.
If men were so ready to defend women, why was the me too movement needed? Why is there still sexism in the workplace, or at all? Do I believe that some men like to appear masculine? Yes. Do I believe that some men equate masculinity with violence? Yes. Do I think that necessarily equates to protecting women, or doing things that benefit women? Absolutely not.
You say you didn't read enough to follow, and that you don't have any studies, but that there is definitely a point to be made. Even if there is, your comment does not really support that.
This feels like how Trump got elected. Commenting about how memes proved a point and just going off of vibes, it must be right.
Im not sure if a mod deleted it or what, but my app isnt showing our conversation past here so this is where ill have to respond. I see where you are coming from and i think that my approach would not work for everyone, but I do generally tend to have an extremely black and white view of the world. As far as i can tell i do generally tend to treat everyone the same, but for very odd reasons. My paranoia leads me to fear getting attacked by literally everyone, and i have the habitual urge to treat everyone with respect. The only thing I do thats questionable is racial and sexual humor, but that is clearly in jest, which still doesnt really excuse it. It does help i suppose that I am a racial and sexual minority
Just fyi, I was talking about this comment: https://reddthat.com/comment/18251444
Otherwise, yea, I think it's important we all do what we can. Best of luck out there.
Yeah, i got that. I got my app working again, not sure what the deal was with that.
Kinda joking, kinda not, but the solution to sexism seems to be autism.
Nah, i didnt even look for a study, thats why i mentioned that. I figured the examples i gave where enough to get the point across, the point being what I stated at the end. As far as the equating masculinity with violence, imma be honest, I don't really want to think about deeper topics right now. I wasnt trying to take anyones side, just comment an observation that I have made.
And yeah, white knighting is seen as cringe and definitely not the default, but its common enough that theres a well known term for it. The cringe part though for me is injecting yourself into a situation without knowing the facts, not the defending of a woman. Although I'm a pretty hardcore feminist, so I don't tend to look at too many things under the lens of a man or woman, I generally just pretend as though gender/sex don't exist when i interact with people to get rid of any bias.
Gender blindness is generally not considered a feminist approach to interpersonal relationships.
If I'm not trying to get in your pants, your sex shouldn't matter.
And I don't know why I would treat women differently then men, so I'm not sure why I need to take gender into account either.
It's different if were discussing things that are gender/sex exclusive, like periods or something.(I can't offer gender exclusive issues bc i cant think of any that arent just gender roles, which i despise) But for casual conversation why does gender matter?
To be clear, I am not trying to convert you here, I just figure you can give me a better explanation if you understand where im coming from.
I'm not sure if you realize that it was me that you were replying to elsewhere in this thread, but I think you actually answered own question. In a vacuum, it shouldn't matter, but in reality, it does. When "randomly" picking who coordinates social events, or work happy hour, is it generally a woman? When you're talking about introducing a new idea in the office and you check with a colleague, is it always the same sex? When someone at work asks for a moment of your time, who are you finding immediate time for? I'm not saying that you have a gender bias, I am just saying that society has a gender bias, and often people don't realize their subconscious gender bias. If you're not paying attention, you can definitely fall into societal assumptions about gender without even realizing it. Heck, you might even find that you are white knighting, and helping women more than men. Maybe you never fall into those issues, but most feminist theory thinks it's important to be at least conscious of this sort of thing.
I kept it mostly work related, because interpersonal relationships are all different and I don't really know anything about you or the kind of interpersonal relationship you would have, but it generally applies to those as well. Obviously, the work examples are also quite specific for a specific kind of job, but hopefully it gives enough of a picture that you could extrapolate how unconscious bias could affect all kinds of jobs and not just insert sitcom office job here.
Calls for evidence followed by impossible to prove claims with no evidence of your own. Look if you're going to hold people to standards at least make some pretense of meeting your own standards.
Moving on, desensitising people to dangerous situations only makes them more likely to get injured due to complacency.
Because you're offerring simple solutions to complex problems, so it's clear what you are.
Since you refuse to provide evidence, I will assume you have none.
Here, enjoy this report on how one in five cases of sexual assault reported to police are not believed: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9136376/
Are you suggesting that those situations are indeed inherently dangerous? If so, then why so uppity about their reactions? If not, then my point stands.
You are offering no solutions to the problems, while acting as though there is no cause to the problems.
Simple solutions can help complex problems. They're not the only way to do so, but they are a way. You are clearly not legitimately interested in women and their struggles though, so this comment is here more for posterity than anything else. May you have the day you deserve.
The report that doesn't provide any evidence for and isn't remotely relevant to this claim? I'll pass.
Please show me where I was 'uppity' about women's reactions. I don't need to offer solutions in order to critique your incredibly naive opinions on how to resolve societal issues.
I literally pointed out that there are dangerous men, and they're a problem. You're just making shit up.
Again, you're making shit up. This is a bullshit claim and has absolutely no basis in reality.
I'm simply not claiming to have solutions to a complex and difficult problem that I don't have, unlike yourself.
Ooh sassy today aren't we. Try kicking rocks, I suspect it'll be as productive as following any of your suggestions would be.
Not getting mad when someone feels threatened by you is a pretty good start.
Constantly being treated like a bad guy, no matter what you do or how hard you try gets wearing. Right or wrong, it makes some men apathetic.
Either I look really non-threatening, or I'm just oblivious, because I've never noticed this. Probably a bit of both.
I'm a bigger guy, about 6'3" and about 230 lbs, so I get that I look intimidating some times. But I've honestly just walked past a woman and smiled at them and get a nasty look. I go out of my way to put out a happy and positive image and still sometimes get looked at like I'm some threat.
It's tiring and honestly at some point you just stop caring. I stop smiling and reassuring everyone smaller than me to make them feel better, because what's the point. I've become jaded.
If I'm going to be treated like a bad guy NO MATTER WHAT I ACTUALLY DO, I might as well be a fucking bad guy. Don't do the crime if you...are going to do the time anyway?
"Women made me evil"
Yeah, and the Republicans made Canada evil.
Women have treated me in such a way that I'm not longer willing to try considering myself to be on their side.
Why would you believe a position that involves hating an entire gender is at all justified
"We treat all men like rapists because what if one actually is?"
"We treat all women like they're going to falsely accuse you of rape because what if one actually does?"
"How can you be that evil?"
So your excuse is that some other people of the opposite gender are equally as shitty as you're planning to be?
Why am I held to a standard they aren't? Why are you bitching at me about it?
I've never struck a woman. Women have slapped, scratched, punched, kicked, bitten and spit on me. I've never sexually assaulted a woman, I was sexually assaulted by female classmates in middle and high school.
Yet I'm increasingly treated as if I'm guilty of all of these things for existing while male.
So fuck off pretending I'm at fault here.