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[–] 101 points 3 months ago (9 children)

Fatigued by a war that officially doesn't exist in Russia..

The war can end in the next hour if Russia decides to piss off behind their internationally recognised borders, still leaving them with more land than they'll ever need.

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  • [–] 40 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Not so fast!
    What about reparation?
    What about returning abducted people?

    Pissing off from anywhere in Ukraine (including Crimea ofc) is simply not enough.
    Letting them off the hook this easy sends the message that anyone can invade random countries and in the worst case just doesn't conquer any land.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    This is where things will get difficult: Of course you're right and Ukraine would be entitled to reparations etc.

    But the question is, who would actually enforce that, if anyone? The U.S.? Certainly not, since there’s a Putin puppet in the White House. China? Surely has absolutely no interest in punishing wars of aggression, given that they’ve more or less obviously set their sights on Taiwan? Europe? Would probably be happy to provide money for reconstruction, but won’t deploy its own soldiers to annex Russian territory as a substitute for reparations...

    That leaves only Ukraine itself, and its soldiers are war-weary after years of conflict, even though they’re currently winning, as they should. I don’t believe Ukraine could justify an offensive against Russian territory, either domestically or in terms of foreign policy… especially since such an offensive would naturally entail greater losses than the successful defense of its homeland.

    So in theory, you’re right, but in practice, I don’t know who would be able to enforce that, even if Russia withdraws from Ukraine. Being right and getting justice have been two different things for centuries, and for good reason.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Sadly I have to agree with you from the beginning to the end of your comment.
    My comment wasn't meant as a realistic scenario, but one that depicts how it should be.
    It was in an effort to prevent normalizing wrong behaviour and unfair scenarios.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago

    As I said, I completely agree with you, and I understood your comment to mean that a withdrawal alone can’t really be enough after Russia has been wreaking havoc in Ukraine for years. I just wanted to share my thoughts on why this will likely be difficult to implement in practice.

    Have a splendid day good Sir/Lady!

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    What about reparation?

    We can start with all of their frozen assets abroad and see how much is left on the bill. Then we can transfer all of Ukraine's debts that they've incurred throughout the war and hold the kremlin liable for paying for them. I suppose we can include on that tab whatever costs related to reconstruction are left over after using those frozen assets.

    How countries are going to collect that debt from russia is anybody's guess, but no sanctions should be lifted until they're paid in full (only after reconstruction in Ukraine is finished, of course).

    As for returning abducted people, yes, absolutely that should unconditionally be a part of the agreement. But getting russia to agree to that will be tricky. So you're right, they don't get to just back out and piss off back behind their borders without settling a few accounts.

    But,

    Letting them off the hook this easy sends the message that anyone can invade random countries and in the worst case just doesn't conquer any land.

    That's... already happened. See Israel in Palestine; the US in Iran, Venezuela. The precedent has already been set. We've already shown chauvinist dictators what they can get away with.

    The only way to undo that is to hold all three of them accountable. Which is honestly not likely without triggering a nuclear holocaust; at least until major internal changes of administration when it'll all be swept under the rug anyway. The best we can hope for is for the individuals responsible to be held accountable. Heads of state as well as all their cronies.

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    [–] 52 points 3 months ago (11 children)

    81%, according to the article

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  • [–] 19 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    That doesn't say in which favour the war should be ended. Would they accept russian defeat or do they think they could keep their occupied parts of Ukraine or even the entire regions of Ukraine?

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  • [–] 18 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah... I'm guessing a lot of these 81% want the war to be over ... with Ukraine's unconditional surrender.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    It would be illegal for russian people to say they want russia to lose, so a lot of people (and everyone in the poll) just say they want it to be over and the other side can guess which one that was

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    That means 19% are still in favor of invading neighbors and committing war crimes in Ukraine.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    It's not like the state media will honestly report on all the war crimes being committed.
    I'd chalk it down to the majority of that 19% simply not being aware of what is going on Ukraine

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    You can probably make a poll is almost any country and find ~20% in favour of a (hypothetical) war they think they are winning 🤷

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    20% of Cologne residents are open to starting a war with Düsseldorf over beer.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    For once, I'm in favour of a war.

    Drown the fuckers in their own Kölsch!*

    (That's a joke. Making people drink Kölsch is a war crime. Besides, you'd probably have to touch it for that.)

    ((That's also a joke. Kölsch isn't that bad. It's a great beer to drink if you're aiming for quantity over quality.))

    *Beer from Cologne, the word itself basically meaning "Col'nian" as a local dialect version of "Colognian"

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    Nah. Many people in Russia have no problem with Putin starting the war, as long as he does it "competently". They see Putin as a "mastermind" who is "playing the long game". They are content as long as they can be convinced that Russia is winning (or at least not losing).

    They don't give a fuck about war crimes or human cost of war if it doesn't directly affect their own lives.

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  • [–] 50 points 3 months ago (22 children)

    Where were they 12 years ago? And 4 years ago? Ah, yes, they wanted a quick adventure — 20 mins in and out. Welp... Fuck them.

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  • [–] 35 points 3 months ago (11 children)

    In their defence it's a heavily controlled state where speaking out can literally land you in the gulag. Doesn't mean things are peachy, and I'm sure a fair few people are just drinking the coolaid, but it's something to consider.

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago

    Heavily controlled state that kills or imprisons political opponents, and disappears or imprisons protesters even for holding a blank white paper on the streets. Russia has the same issue USA does. It's a gigantic country with spread out cities, with most money going to Moscow and St. Petersburg. It's extremely difficult to organize effective protests. Especially now that their internet is more walled off than the Great Firewall of China. It's one thing to have centralized, effective protests in smaller countries where driving to the capital is a couple of hours.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    When USSR ended, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus were in very similar situation, politically and economically. Belarus got Lukashenko from the very beginning, he immediately bought off police and squashed all dissent. Ukraine had a wannabe dictator Yanukovich, bur kicked him out.

    Russia got a big window of opportunity between Yeltsin and Putin, they could totally do their own Maidan, plus storming Kremlin is a historical Russian tradition.

    No one cared.

    They got a taste of Europe and civilized world, the young people got tech jobs with lots of money. Instead of fixing their own government, they mostly emigrated, and now formed a diaspora instead of learning the language and blabbering about mysterious Russian soul and wanking on WW2 photos.

    One of Putin's fears is that Ukraine showed a clear scenario how to depose a dictator.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are young and spent their teenage years fearing their inevitable turn in the meat-grinder. I also wouldn't be surprised if those most on-board with the war already had their turn to fight and didn't make it back home.

    Though the page does say it was a "phone poll," and if the youth in Russia are as averse to strange phone calls as many in the rest of the world, I'll stand corrected.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Also, the ones making the decisions to fight these wars are not the ones fighting.

    It would help if those who start a war are required to spend a portion of their time at the front lines. See how fast these boomers walk back their armies.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    It would help if those who start a war are required to spend a portion of their time at the front lines. See how fast these boomers walk back their armies.

    Not sure about that though. For a large portion of the (european) middle ages it was common and even expected from rulers to fight in battle. It's not like that was an exceptionally peaceful time (nor was it exceptionally warlike though). Yet it should be mentioned that high ranking combatants like kings, knights and other nobles could expect to be captured and ransomed instead of being killed. But still, it was a risk and many a ruler were killed in battle.

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    [–] 14 points 3 months ago

    I guess a good chunk of the pro-war ones are probably dead by now.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    However, Putin was in the 19%.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago

    They should voice their concerns to their government.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (12 children)

    Fuck Russia. And fuck the Russians that are against the war now that it's affecting them.

    They could apparently ignore civilians being murdered in the street, but since they're slightly inconvenienced it suddenly becomes an issue. Absolute trash people.

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    [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    unless you hold PUTIN and his oligarch accountable, not likely to happen.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    It is too late losers, russia would have been fine if they exited the war a year ago, but now? It is WAY too late.

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    [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Russia has a record population again?

    /s

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    They want the war to end now that is personally affecting them. Get fucked.

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