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[-] jrubal1462@mander.xyz 1 points 2 hours ago

There's a good chance I'm not qualified to proclaim this opinion out loud, but this is the internet so...

I don't think Indonesian belongs in the yellow category. Indonesian has no tenses, no cases, nothing. Sure, there's little-to-no overlap in the vocab, but the structure of the language was so straightforward, that a month or 2 with the phrasebook was basically all that was required to survive in country. I wasn't having a lot of deep conversations in Indonesian, but one time I excused myself while squeezing past somebody on a plane, mistakenly giving him the impression that I was local, and ended up getting invited to his sister's house for dinner during Eid.

For context, I took 2 years of French in High School (where I took it more seriously than you'd think), and I took 3 courses of Russian in undergrad.

[-] RBWells@lemmy.world 1 points 3 hours ago

Why would Arabic be more difficult to learn than Hebrew or Russian or Polish? They mean reading and writing it, not speaking? Even so it doesn't seem worse than Russian or Hebrew.

[-] tristynalxander@mander.xyz 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

So, I'm a researcher (in biophysics), and I'm finding it basically impossible to find a job in the US, but I have an interview with a lab in China.

Y'all got any tips on learning Mandarin Chinese?

[-] AnarchoEngineer@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 11 hours ago

Vocal exercises will be key since it’s a tonal language. When you practice, try hard to match every aspect of the examples. Like full blown try to sound exactly like the person speaking. You likely won’t match their vocal quality exactly but it will certainly help you get the pitch changes.

As with any language, you should try forcing yourself to write/speak in Mandarin. (Writing Chinese characters can suck though so typing or writing out the pinyin is probably a better if you’re just starting out.) The best way to learn to speak a language is going to be trying to translate your thoughts into that language. You might be able to parse mandarin well if you only listen to or read it, but speaking requires more thought and helps you build vocabulary better.

As you get more used to the language, watching shows or reading books in the language will become easier and should allow you to learn the meanings of words through context clues—like children do—rather than relying on translation/dictionaries directly.

好运!

[-] leadore@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

I'm not sure why they have Haitian Creole as more difficult than French. The vocab is extremely similar to French and the grammar is easier. So I'm wondering what aspect of it they think is more difficult than the languages in Category 1.

[-] lvxferre@mander.xyz 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The grammar isn't intrinsically "easier" or "harder", but it's harder for English speakers because there's less common ground, so less room to transfer your previous knowledge (from English) into Haitian than in French.

Just for the sake of example, here's two:

  • English places the article before the noun; "the book". French does the same: "le livre". Haitian does the opposite, they go after the noun; "liv la". (There are five definite articles, by the way: a/an/la/lan/nan. They depend on euphony rules.)
  • English declines the pronoun to mark possession; I→my, so "I read my book". French does the same: je→mon, so "je lis mon livre". Haitian does it by juxtaposition; so "mwen li liv mwen an".

Individually they don't look like a big deal, but they do pile up. And it's in a way people don't usually notice when casually seeing the language, because all that complexity is in the syntax (word order, more words), while English and French still rely a fair bit on the morphology (change words to get new words).

Also, regarding the vocabulary, note sometimes the same word diverged a fair bit between French and Haitian. Compare for example

Haitian French English (gloss)
⟨zwazo⟩ /zwazo/ ⟨oiseau⟩ /wazo/ bird
⟨diri⟩ /diɣi/ ⟨riz⟩ /ʁi/ rice
⟨bagay⟩ /baɡaj/ ⟨chose⟩ /ʃoz/ thing
⟨pann⟩ /pãn/ ⟨corde à linge⟩ /kɔʁd a lɛ̃ʒ/ clothesline

Sometimes it makes sense if you remember some preposition or article might have become part of the root, as in zwazo←les oiseaux or diri←du riz. But sometimes it's counter-intuitive; that pann? It's from pendre /pɑ̃dʁ/ "to hang", a verb.

[-] leadore@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Thanks for those examples! I guess I was just thinking of things like verb tenses using markers instead of conjugations.

[-] lvxferre@mander.xyz 2 points 13 hours ago

No problem!

People in general (incl. sometimes me) tend to underestimate a bit the complexity associated with syntax, and to overestimate the one from morphology. So when they see a language that uses no conjugation or declension, but lots of small words — like Haitian does — they tend to think it's easier.

Other good examples of that are in category IV, Cantonese and Mandarin. They're also a bit like Haitian, in the sense they'd rather use additional words to mark things than conjugations/declensions; and yet for English speakers they're notoriously harder, even if you use a transliteration or bopomofo (Mandarin). It takes time to wrap your head around stuff like all nouns being intrinsically uncountable — just like you wouldn't say *two waters in English you don't say *两人 *liǎng rén in Mandarin, you need to say ⟨two cups of water⟩ and ⟨两个人⟩ liǎng gè rén "two 'counts of' people" respectively.

[-] leadore@lemmy.world 2 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Well, I didn't think that alone automatically made it easier, though I do think that no conjugation plus the amount of familiarity in the vocabulary are major factors, not to mention using the same alphabet. So from the admittedly short amount of time I spent on Haitian it felt like a similar difficulty to French, but then I probably didn't get beyond the basics enough to be exposed to the higher difficulty level of syntax you talked about.

But yes, syntax is huge. I spent years on Mandarin, even with a willing native speaker friend to help out, but finally accepted that it was beyond my capabilities (being already in my 40's at the time didn't help either). And it wasn't even the tones so much; the measure words/classifiers you mentioned weren't much problem either. It was indeed the syntax (except for simple straightforward sentences). Often I could recognize every character in a sentence and know its individual meaning, but still be at a loss to understand the overall meaning of the sentence. And with verbs, Haitian clearly marks exactly which tense/aspect is meant, in a system that an English speaker can understand intuitively. Mandarin not so much!

this post was submitted on 30 May 2026
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