Oh and then there also is the whole thing of the government interfering if sex is refused more than 10 times a year. A pomp could literally call the government inspection on you for refusing to be raped.
this post was submitted on 06 Sep 2024
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Uhh, what's this about?
The second step was the law the country passed at the beginning of May—the one that The Publica makes sound like a horrifying, dystopian mess. In fact, the measure had the support of the Belgian sex workers union...
But the law also explicitly protects the right to refuse specific customers, sex acts, etc.
It stipulates that "every sex worker has the right to refuse a client," that "every sex worker has the right to refuse a sexual act," and that "every sex worker has the right to interrupt a sexual act at any time." It also says that "any sex worker has the right to perform a sexual act in the manner they wish" and that "if there are dangers to the sex worker's safety, the sex worker may refuse to sit behind a window or advertise."...
"If a sex worker exercises the right to refuse more than ten times in a six-month period, the sex worker or the employer may seek the intervention of a governmental mediation service," according to UTSOPI. "That service will assess if there is anything wrong with the working conditions, if there is a problem in the employer-employee relationship. The service can also offer professional reorientation possibilities."
I don't trust Reason's reporting on this very much, and the article is full of libertarian junk. I'm curious as to why the sex workers' union supported this, though. Maybe they think the protections it includes are sufficient. Like 100 other things, it'll come down to how it's enforced.
I agree.
Reason is lauded by someone who was a former friend who turned into an anarcho-capitalist and, trust me, from what he said about the staff there, there are some real, err, kooky people there.
And honestly, the legal framework and laws seem... fine in principle, but yeah, how it's enforced is another thing, and honestly, it seems better than what came before.
I'm still reading up on this issue, but Reason's reporting on this almost made me think that what's happening is better than what was the case before.
And the OP should be in line with their org's policies; I feel that just joining an org simply because it's ML or because it's "near to you" is not enough; you have to actively agree with the politics (beyond it just being Marxist-Leninist because many Marxist orgs have their own politics and political culture; no two Marxist or Marxist-Leninist orgs are the same).
Whatever, ig
I don’t trust Reason’s reporting on this very much
Do you have a better source? Would be willing to edit the comment if you do
Thanks!
They explained it all pretty well imo
I wasn't already familiar with any of this so just asked for some further clarification, which I got.
They are a libertarian news outlet so idk if i trust their input or explanation..
They are literally just describing the law I mentioned. What is not to be trusted?
The spin of it.
What? How is that justified? What is the rationalization? Why do they have pimps at all if it's regulated?
I feel like this was the end goal of the liberal conception of "sex work". Through the guise of humanizing sex workers they give legal recognition of rape as a "job" for the victim, legitimizing the industry and pimps (more akin to slave owners than your usual industrialist due to their relation to their victims based in direct violence) and allowing it to become a newly opened market for capitalism leading to increased human trafficking rates and sharpened patriarchal contradictions etc.
Good thread on it by the Vice Chair of the Communist Party of Kenya (sorry for twitter link praying for a new twitter frontend)
Here is the linked thread for people who don't want to go to twitter:
Booker Ngesa Omole ☭:
There is no such a thing like sex work, period! Let's address the misguided communists who claim "sex work" is legitimate labor. This notion betrays the fundamental principles of Marxism and aligns with capitalist exploitation rather than challenging it.
In a patriarchal society, prostitution isn't just about humiliation—it's the highest form of exploitation, primarily affecting poor and working-class women.These women aren't "workers" in the traditional sense; they're victims of a system that commodifies their bodies.
The relationship between those who purchase sex and those who sell it is not one of equality. It's a relationship of oppression, where the powerful exert control over the powerless, perpetuating violence and exploitation.
To suggest that prostitution is anything other than the grossest form of exploitation ignores the brutal realities these women face: physical and psychological violence, poverty, and a society that views them as disposable.
Human beings should never be used as mere instruments for others' ends. The commodification of women’s bodies contradicts the Marxist principle that people should not be treated as commodities.
True communists must reject the capitalist narrative that seeks to legitimize prostitution under the guise of "sex work." Our fight is for a society where exploitation is abolished and where women are free from the shackles of patriarchy.
Anything less is a betrayal of our revolutionary ideals and a capitulation to the forces of reaction. We must stand firm against this dangerous rhetoric and fight for the liberation of all women from exploitation.
imo. people (especially comrades) should really consider using the fediverse.
I completely agree here! I remember joining an org where an Ethiopian lady, who works for an org that saves victims of human trafficking and sexual exploitation, gave us a lecture about this. She said the following(I am paraphrasing):
Sex work is not work. Let's use an example of a job. When you grow old in the job, you gain experience and produce better value and services which in the end will be rewarded with more money. In other words, most workers earnings increase when they get more experienced. In sex "work", it doesn't happen that way. The time where you are paid the most will be when you start. In other words, the younger you are the better the pay. This contradicts fundamentally how most jobs and work goes. With this in mind, offering sex for money is not work but the most ruthless and inhumane exploitation.
To this date, I still remember her words.
I agree with the sentiment, but by this definition any professional sport, or modelling, and most acting, is not work.
I think there are other, better arguments to separate sex work from other forms of work.
Most professional sports, modeling, and acting increase pay with experience so those fall perfectly with what the Ethiopian lady describe as work.
Sex work is inherently violent to the victim/ "worker"
xcancel.com
Misogyny and patriarchy are so normalized and interwoven with our lives that we’re expected to take minor improvements on an abomination as progress. I feel your pain comrade.
It’s like a slave strike that results in a law for better accommodations and maximum amount of corporal violence that can be used. It’d obviously be an improvement in a vacuum but it’s just making something that shouldn’t exist slightly more comfortable while lessening the ammo those against it have. The solution of course is abolition so anything that perpetuates it, normalizes it, gives it good PR, allows people to live in denial about it or act like it’s okay is frustrating and I must say confusing.
This is just the limits of working with reformism and within capitalism I feel. It does make one want to condemn and step away from the whole thing in disgust as a farce.
And I’ve expressed before these same fears. It’s logical and will happen which is why I’m against normalization. I’m not for criminalizing victims but not for legalizing it either for these reasons.
Thanks you said it much better than I did!
sounds like they are trying to fight the negative aspects of it, as long as sex workers themselves have a leading potion in stuff like this i think it cant be negative. human trafficking and abuses within the industry is only able to be so prevalent because it exists in the shadows and in a grey zone if not outright the black market. whatever u think of sex work and its place in future societies and its validity as work, sex workers are workers and they are some of the most oppressed and badly treated workers im glad for anything that improves their position.
Completely agree. I haven't worked up the courage, but it's something I absolutely would like to do as a part time job. It's a service like any other, and it should be treated as such.
Edit: to the downvoters, why? My body your choice?
Other users have summed it up: you are legitimizing sex work as a "real job" instead of the horror that it is.
Sex work has long-term consequences. Mia Khalifa was admonished by her family and people back in Lebanon after the video became viral.
I know
Isn't that more of a mark against her family for being shitty to her?
It's all fine ideas when you are an outsider looking in, but to me at least, it sounds like it just gives the illegal part of the sex industry more insentive to traffick human beings instead of hiring a legitimately consensual sex worker.
legitimately consensual sex worker
no such thing, really. Not a lotta rich kids signing up to be sex workers.
But once they do, they get a Netflix TV show (“Baby”, 2018).
That's not exactly as profound as you think it is. Plenty of people enjoy their job or aspects of it, but hate the commodification of their labor.
I think what you're saying is somewhat chauvinist, even if you do have a point. Sex workers themselves aren't a monolith, and I think marxist sex workers deserve a bigger voice.
there's vanishingly little consensual wage labor by that standard
also "sex work" is an umbrella that includes onlyfans feet posters, not just intercourse
What the fuck is are you talking about? Yes, obviously there is basically no such thing as consentual wage labor, we don’t call it wage slavery just to be provocative. I’m so sick of communists turning into libertarians the minute sex work comes up.
It's probably one of the easiest ways to start a fight among leftists, this topic. And in my experience it is men who flock to defend an industry they mainly profit off while women, POC, LGBTQ+ community members are the ones going against it, because they are the one receiving the beatings. Men really need to do better at depornographing and depatriarching their thinking.
Personally I think that painting it as particularly "men who flock to defend the industry" strikes me as- incorrect from my experience, when it comes to leftist spaces (then again I generally also stick to LGBT spaces myself).
Historically, sex work is one of those "industries" that is easily accessible (not that that is or isn't a good thing, but it is filling a need- and no, not a sexual one- continue reading but basically an employment/income need) for those communities historically disenfranchised and stigmatized; women (and some men, and- saddeningly and with no justification whatsoever for those who take advantage, moreso than in other cases- children) coming from bad circumstances, POC, those with disabilities or from persecuted communities, the homeless, and of course the LGBT community in particular- sex work is especially visible wherever the lumpenproletariat is, wherever those who are most stomped on and looked down on are, sex work is most prevalent.
As someone who has been homeless- and who is a POC, trans woman, and LGBT+ (haven't done sex work before myself, but TBH in the future the honest truth is that- I probably should, simply as a basic assessment of my circumstances I should) this portrayal is completely at odds with what I've seen, from people I've met in-person (not purchasing sex work either, I have never and will never do that- but meeting people in-person from broader community support (non-sex-work related) events, having friends who have done sex work- men included, etc).
Personally, I saw Kollontai quoted here, have read her take on the subject before, and more or less agree (with caveats). But the fact of the matter is that-
(A) Sex work exists, and will exist until the motivators/circumstances driving people into sex work cease to exist. That's a fact, and will continue to be one likely well into socialism until humanity has truly developed to such an extent that perhaps could be described as "post-scarcity." It is literally the "oldest occupation," one that has existed long before capitalism and which has its own counterparts (of sorts) within much of the animal kingdom.
(B) While legitimizing sex work (actual sex work, I'd say that expression through art is a completely different subject though also not without its own complications, and that in regards to videos/film then it gets into the profit motive and consent/etc being a serious issue) may be "icky"- improving the conditions for sex workers is something that we should support, so long as it actually improves the conditions for said workers (and debates over whether it is "work" or not, or talking about how bad it is and how no one should have to do it- which is par for the course in capitalism though I agree sex work, or rather the sex industry (not the workers of course) anyways, is a particularly unique kind of evil- will not change the fact that those under the industry are human beings with the same needs as anyone else and we should be aiding them in acquiring those first- and seriously, until we can say that their needs are covered, pontificating without offering a tangible and immediate alternative is ineffective and in fact counter-productive)
Basically- ideals are nice and all. And sex work is icky, sure, I agree (or the sex "industry" is icky, anyways, the workers or "workers" aren't). But without an alternative on the table, an alternative we can immediately offer (ie. something that isn't exactly possible without establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat) the best we can do is minimize the harm, aid those who wish to escape this particularly wretched kind of exploitation, and aid the many who- after judging their material conditions (and doing so better than we can for them- as they have their own life, their own priorities, they know the intricacies of their circumstances best, etc) decide they still "want" or rather need to engage in the work- to aid them to have better outcomes, to have better circumstances even if it is within that "industry."
CW sex work related things, cus you mentioned you might
FWIW I really suggest not doing IRL sex work. Occams razor is they just want sex, but they still lie about STDs constantly (people with undetectable HIV will never admit they have HIV or use a condom), will stiff you, and can be violent at the drop of a hat. From my experience you will get an STD (I got syphilis twice, chlamydia, anal warts, and herpes type 1), they will stiff you, you can't say NO. I was only raped once (although sex work as a whole constitutes rape, even in the best, safest situation) and drugged once (because the dude didn't want to party by homself). Only ever beaten by random queerphobes on the street, then again I also never fight back when someone is forcing me
And this was while I escorted people who knew me from porn. Porn btw tests the day of the shoot usually, although HIV has a 2 week to 2 month window. Also think you'll only do work online? Well eventually someone will make a really really good offer
And eventually you'll get old and not make the sweet bucks anymore and be saddled with all that royalty free trauma
In hindsight as it got rather long (I ramble)- CW for what I guess is technically suicidality/depression spiel though not active suicidality
Thanks for your message- it's given me a fair bit to think about. Hearing your experiences was- very different, when I suppose that the one close friend I have who did sex work is a (fit) dude who has since joined the army.
I'll admit that said, I probably still will end up doing it when I get my shit back together again (losing weight, since a certain mental breakdown quite a while back that's been an issue and just existing as that in itself is- not something I handle well as someone who has serious complexes over pride/dignity/a very certain idea of appearance).
The honest truth is that (while my circumstances aren't "everything is on fire" for now) the money could genuinely and immensely improve my life, and that of those I love. And I suppose the honest truth is that I don't have much self worth if any (whatever I have has always been tied to how much worth- not necessarily measured by capital, but how I measure the worth of continuing to live is I suppose- I'm not suicidal and still aspire for much more/am not done with life, but frankly the greater part of the equation alongside that is that I can't "afford" to die either- not while I have unfinished business wherein my loved ones and some things I care about have to be taken care of first).
Thanks for sharing your experiences all the same, and- I'll probably think twice about IRL sex work as such (but the truth is money is money- and probably everyone has a price, for something where it's just myself on the line I know I certainly do). I'm - I dunno. A shitty person though, someone who's already enough of a wreck and has always been such, whose whole mentality since I was a kid is that I came from "trash" and have to aspire and work to be more.
Obviously I'm a communist, and have- not just my ideals, but my genuine beliefs and understanding of how things should be, can be, and why they are as they are. But if I were to describe it- well, the main or only reason I'd want to get old as-is would be to not leave my partner. And I'm not someone who I think should exist, nor would want to exist in an ideal world or even just a somewhat better/improved world, in the sense that once I've finished my business, at least as I see it now, it's best on my end to have an expiry date as I already figure that my accumulated experiences, trauma, personality and being are... well honestly pretty miserable and bitter, and not something I want to have to deal with for an overly long time (which I suppose is suicidality of a sort itself).
My circumstances aren't great, but more than that is also that I simply also am not fine and can't imagine myself being a level of fine (in truth even if the material conditions improved) to overly care about myself, certainly not more than the people and things I care about or even just my specific sense of pride/dignity/avoiding shame (none of which would be overly affected if at all by sex work as I have no values against it nor care about those values of others in that regard, and all of which admittedly have to do with either material conditions and physical appearance).
If I get old, if I live to get old, it'll be a burden (on myself, mentally) that I'll have put up with only for other reasons on the table (things unfinished, also to spend time with my partner or others I care about). Living as is already is a burden in that sense, though I'm not actively suicidal as I have hopes and things I want to do all the same, I have my partner and want to continue living with them, and I have people and things I can't afford to die on just yet. Past that though- I can't say living overly long can appeal to me anymore, even in the most ideal of circumstances where all material and physical things were dealt with I'd at least want a mind wipe.
Here in Belgium your benefits can be cut as soon as you refuse a job that is offered to you through government instances...What if...you refuse a sex worker position?
well, that sounds kinda grim, it will need some education to convince people that prostitution is in most cases degrading for the person who do it. i mean, there will be people who likes it, but most women wouldn't be as enthusiastic to suck strangers as a line of work
I'm a bit confused by this post. I thought the only viable strategy for now is harm reduction since abolition simply doesn't and never will work and leads to far worse outcomes. So until we live in a post-scarcity society, you have to support harm reduction.
The goal should be to make pimps superfluous and be able to root out sex slavery. But not normalize prostitution. It will always have a stigma.
benefits can be cut as soon as you refuse a job
....
you refuse a sex worker position?
Imo this would be a very clear cut case of human trafficking, carried out by the state. Meaning if cases like this happens, which is inevitable, no justice would ever be given, and it wouldn't even be recognized as human trafficking.
What your union HAS to do is, lobby for a law, that exempts every kind of sex working jobs from this fucked up rule.
As for if the rules improve the material conditions of sex workers.... idfk I am no sex worker, but the sex workers and orgs surrounding that field will know. HOWEVER your concern is incredibly valid. The sex work industry shouldn't be legitimized. That is one of the worst thing white feminism has done imo. So it is important to also lobby for laws like.... making it illegal to make advertisement for sex work. Though this might criminalize the workers in some case, which is the thing they always tell us not to do.
Also destroying sex work lobby is also very important, because the lobby will only be beneficial for the most disgusting capitalists.
If the people themselves are happy, maybe they know something you don't. Have you asked them? What did they say?
This seems like you're taking a fringe interpretation of possible future and panicking about it. For example, why did you mix sex worker together with adult acting? Yeah, they could be related, but it doesn't necessarily follow. That was weird. If we get to mix careers willy nilly, that can be done for any two jobs. So maybe you should be worried about unemployment law itself, not sex workers.