Unpopular Opinion
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I think we agree on capitalism for the most part, but do you see how OP and others might find your comment unhelpful?
As OP says themselves, yes, they know capitalism is bad. Pointing it out and leading every discussion onto it doesn't make for a very interesting or nuanced debate.
As others have said, capitalism is here to stay for at least several decades, probably closer to a century. Major societal change is unrealistic on the short term. I think OP (and I think I largely agree) thinks that it would be better to talk more concretely about the small incremental changes we can make to make society better today.
"we're moving straight towards that iceberg, we're all going to die!"
"I agree but this reaction is not being helpful. Now help me rearrange these deck chairs..."
I mean, this kinda comes back to OPs complaint again. As I attempt to enter in this discussion with a more nuanced take, you reply to me in a sarcastic tone with a metaphor (that I don't think fits very well to reality) that seems to imply that either I fully agree with you or I am part of the problem or at least not doing anything helpful.
Surely you realize that these topics are complicated and there's not a black/white dichotomy? Can you understand how OP and others might find comments like that off-putting, as you either need to fully agree or you're part of the problem?
I also don't think this stance or attitude is helping your case actually. If you want to convince people to action, this is not the way to do it. This just puts them off and pushes them away.
Not every post I make is meant to be a convincing call to action. Not every situation is going to be helped at this. I surmised that this thread - full of smug centrists pointing out how we "have to be realistic" and downvoting everyone pointing out that being this way has led us directly to a climate apocalypse - is not going to be worth the effort.
I think it's the most apt analogy there is. There, the only possible solution would have been an effective mutiny, to wrest the wheel from the captain and sail to safer waters, and damn the journey time or company profits. Much like the only solution we have right now it to wrest the "wheel" of society from the rich an d damn company profits.
But I saw you elsewhere engaging in unscientific climate denialism, much like every capitalist apologist has to in order to stave of cognitivie dissonance, so I have no patience to talk to antiscientific people.
There is no complications in saying that an Anthropogenic extinction is underway and we need to stop the system powering it.
Where? I'm sorry if I've offended you but I am definitely in favour of doing all we can to stop climate change and I am definitely not anti-scientific or in denial about climate change (I fully believe climate change exists and is caused by humans, for the record).
Please, let's not devolve to name-calling or insults.
This implies that climate change would have happened on its own.
That's not what I meant. I meant that there's many different types of societies and capitalism is just one of them. It's perfectly possible that we could've had something other than capitalism (if only) and we still would've dug oil out of the ground and burned it to cause climate change. Capitalism is bad and causes climate change, but I'm sure many other types of societies (maybe not all) would also do it.
Historic Revisionism is just apologia with extra steps. As if you can't engage in direct whataboutism, so you have to invent a fictional whataboutism.
Facts of the matter is that Capitalism did directly lead to climate apocalypse. We knew the effects of burning fossil fuels since the 19th century, but all steps to prevent this scenario were thwarted by, you guessed it, capitalists and rich directly funding lobbyists and misinformation campaigns.
I'm not defending capitalism or anything of the sort. I'm just saying that changing society is complicated and it will take a long time. If I could flip a switch and we had a better world, that'd be great, but unfortunately reality is not that easy.
I really think we agree on capitalism (yes, it's bad) and climate change (yes, fueled by capitalism and also very bad), so there's no need to accuse me of anything. That made me quite uncomfortable and that makes me quite sad and makes me empathize with OPs complaint. It's mostly about how it's said and the absolute-ness of the terms. Hope you have a nice day
Nobody said it was simple to change society. What is simple is recognizing that we need to get rid of Capitalism.
The problem with the op's "discussing problems short term" is that what they mean is "let's waste time trying to reform Capitalism yet again and hope it to be turns out differently this time unlike the 1000 times before it"
You can do both, you know? This all or nothing is exactly what is turning people off. Mostly because those in your camp are mostly doing...nothing but posting the same comment. Either give us a roadmap to action or shut. The. Fuck. Up.
No you can t both reform and dismantle Capitalism at the same time
No one is talking about reforming capitalism. There are, however, problems that need immediate attention. One action does not negate the other. Unless you're starting the revolution tomorrow, there are people that need to put food on the table. Happy to talk about the revolution when we get there. In the meantime, let's help those we can.
I never said not to take direct action to help others. Not sure what you're arguing against.
You directly accused OP of wanting to reform capitalism. I don't even know what your point is any more because any time someone presses you pivot to a new argument.
The op did not give concrete examples, but if they're getting comments about their praxis like that, it's probably because of they're reformist tactics. And reformism doesn't work. I have been pretty consistent with my message
All op was saying is that changing society is a complicated process. They even conceded that capitalism is bad.What about this do you disagree with?
By op I mean /c/SorteKanin. I hope we're talking about the same person.
This is my last reply to them: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/7558299
In which I was countering the OP-OP, not them. Not sure what you're objecting to
Ok. I see now. Maybe I did a poor job of communicating my point in my first response to you. I'm just tired of this all-or-nothing attitude. People need immediate solutions and venting on social media about "capitalism bad" is just not effective. I think clear actionable items are more effective.
I am all for direct action immediately. In fact, that's the only thing I'm for, because this direct action is the only thing that can bring down capitalism. But it has to be direct action. Not voting for politicians or begging them and shit.
I'm really happy that some of you have the privilege of being accelerationists knowing that not much will affect you and you can choose to be apolitical. In the meantime, there are plenty of us that are being directly affected by legislation that republicans are passing and for now the best we can do is try to stand up to them. Thanks for your "direct action" though.
I'm not being accelerationist. I have seen in the past that voting doesn't do jack shit. Direct action brought the 8-hour day, the 40-hour week, the anti child labor laws, and so many others. Voting brought you directly to trump and fascism. So save your centrist smugness for someone else.
You agree this is an extinction level event? You agree capitalism is largely at fault?
Climate change is legitimately a very large threat to the planet and while it likely will not drive humans to extinction, it's certainly killing lots of nature. So I don't think calling it "extinction level" is inaccurate.
And yea, capitalism definitely has at least a part of the fault.
But again, these things are complicated and any discussion around them must reflect that with nuance. It's hard to say if climate change would have happened regardless of capitalism (edit: i.e. climate change could still have happened if we had some other kind of society) - it could be.
Ok. So imagine a world that progressed technologically like we did until the 70s, but it's some kind of decentralized communism focusing on democracy at work. (Business is worker owned and operated)
In the 70s, do they still suppress the science of climate change?
I can't say for sure, but it seems far less likely to me. Thoughts?
I think I agree with you, it seems less likely, but we can't know. But also, society is not a choice between A and B. You may as well be hypothesising about what would have happened in an anarchist society, or dictatorial or monarchy or whatever.
I think this kinda falls into what OP is complaining about again. We can't change what happened before the 1970s. What does it help to theorycraft like we had a time machine? I'm much more interested in what we can do today about tomorrow, and I think that discussion would probably also be a lot more productive.
There's been a push for this in a lot of the media I consume. Usually they push the solar punk aesthetic as something to work towards.
Last year I started a worker co-op that works at assisting not for profit housing. I pay my bills, but I'm the only one working full-time so far. I've also been working on having perennial plant food growing in my neighborhood. I've planted fruit trees and other varieties of fruits and vegetables that grow without much care.
What do you do?
See, now this is helpful as a way to engage people with ideas they might not be aware of. We need more comments like this.
I appreciate that.
The internet in general is pretty negative. Something you said earlier reminded me of a quote that stuck with me. I can't remember who said it but 'the future is built on the present. What are you building today?'
It's easy to complain, it's probably my favorite hobby, but what can we do to smash capitalism? Personally, I think it's co-ops. Worker co-ops. Housing co-ops. Service co-ops. Let's shed our corporate overlords and build something for eachother.
What are you doing? What do you think we should be moving towards?
Cool quote. Funny you mention Co-ops. I was thinking about that not long ago.
Some of the issues and problems, as I understand them, include:
I think corporations and the stock market were a colossal mistake. Entities that become too wealthy become powerful through regulatory capture and then wreak havoc with impunity. Whether it's the Dutch East India Company or Apple or Nestle or whatever.
I recognize that vast capital is needed to accomplish some beneficial things. But capitalists aren't the only source of capital. I think a lot of the high dollar endeavors with public benefits like medical research, should be socialized.
I think any field where the product or service is at odds with profit maximization should be socialized. So healthcare, safety products, stuff like that.
I also think co-ops are necessary. I think the means of production shouldn't fall to the few but to everyone in an organization. We must get away from corporate fiefdoms with employers as subjects. Corporations have way, way too much power over employees. We've traded kings and lords for corporations, basically.
I think we should do a lot better at building a culture of community responsibility, reducing childhood abuse and neglect that lead to dysfunctional and antisocial behaviors that lead to sociopaths running companies. We should have social programs to help people that become poor for various reasons. We should have social safety nets so that nobody has to get left far behind.
Crime would be reduced by much of these things. But for whatever crime remains, the goal of our justice system should be rehabilitation. That isn't always possible but the goal shouldn't be punishment, vengeance, or profit for privately owned prisons.
I try to limit my meat consumption and consumption in general. I bike to work. I vote for politicians that care about doing something about climate change.
I wish I had good candidates and could bike to work. You're pretty lucky