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[–] 12 points 1 day ago (27 children)

How do we know if these are actually a good thing for the environment? It seems like it's at least possible the excess waste offsets the benefit.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 day ago* (1 child)

    If you have a reusable bag, it uses more plastic than like 100 individual bags, but it produces less waste that floats in the ocean or decays in a landfill.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 day ago

    Lived in my house for a few years and bought like 3 plastic bags in that time. We also took a few from my partners family when we moved in so we did start with some.

    Stats show a vast drop in how many plastic bags are used just by charging a tiny bit of money for them. Plus by having a cost now it makes sense to make them better.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 day ago (13 children)

    It’s a complex question to answer. But, basically reusable plastic > reusable cotton > plastic > paper

    https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/sustainable-shoppingwhich-bag-best/

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  • [–] 25 points 1 day ago (10 children)

    The article briefly mentions this, but having lived in states with plastic bag bans, and states without - well drive through the countryside and count all the plastic bags in ditches, trees, streams. Paper might be more intensive to produce, but the lingering effects of plastic bags are being underestimated I think.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 day ago (6 children)

    I always feel it's so dishonest comparing the energy requirement between plastic and paper. Yes, paper takes a lot to produce, planting them, machinery for harvest, processing and so on. But energy is practically infinite with solar power. And while alive the trees are working as carbon capture, and when the bag gets thrown on the ground it puts the carbon back into the soil. I wonder how many paperbags have killed fish and turtles compared to plastic ones.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 day ago (5 children)

    "energy is practically infinite with solar power" No it isn't.

    On Earth's surface, sunlight is intermittent. Tall objects such as trees interrupt it, you'll get to produce a small fraction of the power you expect for a few hours in the morning and evening and full power for about 4 hours in the mid-day. You need to figure out how to use it while you've got it, or store it for later. That gets bulky and expensive real quick.

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  • [–] 2 points 19 hours ago (1 child)

    Considering our current energy consumption, we need to capture about an hour of the Sun's energy being intercepted by Earth.

    There's 8760 hours in a year, so if we can intercept one 8760th part (~0.0114%) of the energy thrown our way. We can power our current demand levels, sure it would require some massive batteries

    But it's not impossible to think the tech being able to develop into energy mining from the surface of the ocean. Which covers 70% of the entire surface and only experiences shade through clouds. Assuming solar could capture 10% of the energy concentrated at their location, we'd basically have energy covered for decades if we plastered 1% of our surface with it. Or 1.43% of the surface of our oceans.

    That would allow us to consume 8.7 times more energy than today.

    For reference, the silicon cells we use today capture in the ballpark of 15-22% of the sunlight they receive. So getting to an average of 10% is possible.

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  • You're thinking in very broad terms. "Society uses this much energy, it would take this many solar panels to generate that much energy." There's a lot of nuance you're ignoring. How much of that energy is consumed in remote places away from any power grids? How much of it is consumed for transportation, by vehicles that have to have on-board power? Solar won't produce it at a constant or even predictable rate, and it isn't consumed at a constant or predictable rate. In the UK for example, the power grid has to coordinate with broadcasters of soccer games because they have to cope with millions of kettles being turned on simultaneously during commercial breaks.

    1.43% of the ocean doesn't sound like much in those terms, but Earth is a pretty big place, you're talking about covering more than 5 million square kilometers of ocean. I take it you plan to do that relatively near land, shallow water which would decrease the massive amount of steel and/or concrete you'd have to use to mount all those panels, so you're going to shade millions of acres of estuary and tidal ecosystems from sunlight...and then scatter them with debris during the next hurricane.

    Question: How much concrete and steel are you going to have to manufacture and install to support a couple million square miles of solar panels over the ocean? I mean, it's not like those are energy intensive, carbon releasing industries, right?

    Further question: Do you think you're helping anything? Jeremy Clarkson had this dismissive term he would use for the "cars are bad for the environment" people: Ecomentalists. That's as good a term as any for the kind of thinking you've displayed here.

    Energy sustainability is a valid concern and photovoltaic generation is one of several technologies we should be using to address it, but it's not going to do it alone. "Let's cover tens of millions of acres of the ocean in solar panels" says "I want to solve the actual problem" less than it says "I really like solar panels."

    I have a different proposal: Let's cover the Panama Canal's lock reservoirs in solar panels. If you're not familiar, one of the newer additions to the Panama Canal is a set of reservoirs that water from the locks is drained into rather than directly from lock to lock. What that does is allow some volume of water to be re-used more often before being released out to sea. Covering those in solar panels isn't going to disrupt an ecosystem; they're artificial reservoirs. Support structures aren't going to be as massive; they're surrounded by land. The shade from the panels would cool the water in the reservoirs and prevent at least some evaporation, preserving some water for lock usage, and the energy could be used to actually pump water uphill. Every gallon pumped uphill is a gallon of Lake Gatun's water preserved, which serves as drinking water for the million residents of Panama City. Also, if the lake level is maintained higher, the canal can remain open to more traffic, drastically reducing the distance of travel for ships. Every voyage that goes through the canal rather than around the Horn is millions of kilograms of high sulfur bunker oil that isn't burned. That, and projects like it, is much more realistic, fundable, doable, and will have real impacts.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

    You know you can just place the solar panels out of the shade of trees right? If done right you'll be producing decent power from a little after sunrise to a little before sunset, and of course much more midday.

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    1. I live in a forest, so no I can't. My property is shaded by trees I don't own.

    2. Even if I could, solar panels work best when aligned perpendicular to sunlight, and fixed solar panels spend most of the day oblique to the light. Any panel that doesn't move will give you a bell curve of power throughout the day. Mine do. I can go out there, align them with the sun with a little sundial thing, half an hour later they're making 10% less.

    Don't mistake me as anti solar. I have solar panels in the sun making power right now. They're useful, but they have limitations.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 day ago

    The shitty little "reusable" bags that wear out after a few uses are def worse than the micron-thin plastic were overall.

    My state banned plastic a while back and I will way, i don't see bags stuck all over the bushes, roadsides and trees anymore so that's a plus.

    I got a dozen or so insulated Wegmans large cooler bags that have lasted 5 years so far. (6 for each car) They're double-stitched, hardcore zippers no signs of wear. I suspect their realistic lifetime is my and my wife's death. It's not like the kids are going to pine over the bags or anything. Now the real question, assuming they're evergreen (jury is still out) is 25-35 years of waste reduction from a 0.001 disposable plastic bag actually net negative against 12 large textile bags with thick plastic liners, zippers, and insulation?

    The bags probably host $200 in total and I'm quite sure I could buy a lifetime supply of disposable plastic bags for $200.

    Not seeing plastic bags stuck to a tree every quarter mile feels good. I think reusable is probably the right answer, even if it's not a huge ecological win.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 day ago (6 children)

    How much material and energy goes into making those thin plastic grocery bags? They're apparently extruded as a tube and then crimped and cut, Compare that to a woven polyester bag.

    The whole "reduce, reuse, recycle" thing: I'm a woodworker, I don't buy 600 grit sandpaper for rubbing out finishes, I use paper grocery bags. So I get shop supplies for free and use less plastic. Plastic bags mostly get re-used as trash bags, only the ones that are very torn get recycled. I don't buy purpose built trash bags.

    If you HAVE a re-usable bag, use it. Sure. Stacking up re-usable bags that you don't take to the store IS worse.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    I can't find the video now, but a couple years ago there was a science creator who broke down the overall environmental cost (co2 production, manufacturing chemicals, microplastics, etc.) of producing the materials needed to make the various bags, manufacturing, transportation, and time to break down/end of life impacts. The single use plastic bags were less impactful than any reusable bags by far. This can be increased by reusing the single use bags as you would a reusable bag before using it for garbage like you do. Only paper bags were marginally better than single use plastic, but even that is unsustainable as it is still a single use item, and produces all kinds of chemicals during the pulping process. Not to mention only ~50% get recycled, leading to more forestry to supply materials.

    All that to say you're right. The 3 R's are the way to go.

    My personal pet peeve are the "environmentalists" who rush out to buy new "environmentally friendly" options rather than using what they currently have until it needs to be replaced. Particularly since most of the organic replacements don't last as long. Yes, the plastic version will end up in the landfill regardless, but they could have reduced their overall impact by 5 to 500 organic whatevers in the meantime. Eco-consumerist nonsense. /rant

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (1 child)

    I recently realised that I don't even need to use up my dwindling supply of former grocery now mostly garbage bags for smaller garbage cans around my place. Previously, I would remove the bag from the bin, tie it up and drop it in the main garbage, usually after emptying it because otherwise it would be too full (and I'm in a condo with a dumpster, so timing garbage pickups isn't an issue).

    My new method is to just grab the whole smaller bin and dump the contents out into the main bin, reusing the bag unless it got destroyed since it was last emptied. My main bin is my kitchen bin, so the others are mostly getting dry things anyways. It's the adhesives that can mess up the bags now, though if it's just a piece of sticky paper, could just leave it stuck to the bag for a while if it isn't interfering with other things going in.

    I've been using fancier store bags (sometimes the reusable plastic ones, sometimes the paper ones that already look like gift bags just with the store name instead of Elsa or whatever) as gift bags, mostly because buying special packaging for gifts is just a waste, especially because the kid only cares about what's on the bag until they can get at what's in the bag, then it usually sits somewhere maybe holding a bunch of gifts for a bit, probably getting ripped before it gets folded flat to be used in the future, though I'm sure some people just throw them out.

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  • There hasn't been a plastic bag ban in my area, so I do dispose of them. I even use an office size trash can as a kitchen trash can. I'm a bachelor, kitchen scraps and cat litter will smell intolerable long before I fill a kitchen bag anyway.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago* (1 child)

    In my case, I largely use store plastic bags for trash bags since they have way less plastic than a regular kitchen trash bag.

    You can get frames that go over cabinet doors and such that hold them open.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago

    That's opposite where I live. Garbage bags are flimsical thin bags, while grocery bags are durable heavy material so you can carry 6-7 bottles of 1.5 l. without it breaking.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago

    I used to throw huge bags of bags in recycling. We used to have bags blowing around everywhere. I can see it made a huge difference in my house, but we're not idiots, you go shopping, you bring a bag and some type of payment for said goods.

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