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Self of Theseus (thelemmy.club)
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[-] cynar@lemmy.world 46 points 1 day ago

There are 3 types of continuity.

  • Continuity of material
  • Continuity of identity
  • Continuity of memory

Teleport me, and I can continuity of identity and memory. The same applies slower to material replacement.

(Mind) Clone me and I have continuity of memory only. I would consider this me me, but close enough to count, unless the original was still in play.

Wipe my memory and I have continuity of identity and material. Legally it's still me, but I would consider the disconnect the loss of myself.

Basically, I want continuity of memory and identity, but only memory is critical to it. Thomas has his memories intact, and has continuity of identity. He's definitely still Thomas.

[-] TheLeadenSea@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 day ago

Cloning is just making a new person with your DNA, it's not continuity of any of those

[-] cynar@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

Hence why I put "mind" in brackets. I was more referring to Hollywood style "cloning" variants.

[-] TheLeadenSea@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 day ago
[-] cynar@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

The full copy, "cloning" adult body and up to date brain. Think "The 6th Day" film.

[-] Banana@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 day ago

How does this apply to something like the game SOMA?

[-] Pipea@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

He was not even alive to begin with. Literally a robot following the instructions left by a recording of a human mind. He just thought he was a real human because the recording said/believed so.

[-] Banana@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 day ago

True, but could it not be continuity of memory in that case?

[-] Pipea@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

I would say no, because he never was a part of the original. IIRC, he's a copy of this person's memories before they even died, so he forked the progression of memories? The original would have lived, and died, with no continuity going over to the clone. The clone, upon receiving these memories, believes himself to be the original, but he's wrong.

[-] Banana@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago

Oh that's a really good point. God that game is such a trip.

[-] cynar@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

I've not played that one, so no idea.

[-] Okokimup@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago

Body swap would be continuity of memory, but not identity or material.

[-] cynar@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

It depends if the swapped mind considered themselves me or not (clone's brain?). If not then perceived identity would follow the mind, even if the legal identity didn't.

If it were a clone's mind, we would have to come to some sort of understanding on the subject.

It can quickly get convoluted. E.g. if I became a digital identity, would I be willing to split off versions of myself for particular tasks, only to absorb them later. Conversely, could I function as such an entity? How long would I need to diverge before I became a truly separate entity in my own mind?

The book "Accelerando", by Charles Stross plays with this. He refers to them as eigen-minds. A collection of minds overlapping within a single identity. How liable is a diverged eigen-mind from its alternates, when it comes to contracts and debts?

[-] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

I'd argue that identity and memory are the same thing. Like if you lose your memory, your identity becomes as strange as anyone else's. Or if you're a copy of someone else, you won't know it unless you were told and would think you're just that person when you wake up. Like if there was a transporter malfunction where it didn't destroy the original copy. You'd have one copy at the original site thinking the transport just didn't work and another one at the destination going about their life while Harry wonders how to tell Janeway.

[-] cynar@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

Identity is as much a social structure as a personal one. E.g. in star trek, when Will riker is duplicated. Both have continuity of memory, but Thomas has his continuity of identity broken. Though he doesn't realise this until he meets his eigen twin, who's been continuing on. Even though both are nominally identical at the moment of creation, Will's continuation of his career maintained continuity of identity. Thomas Riker had his broken by being stranded. Hence why Thomas changed his name, while Will continued using Will.

[-] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 day ago

What do you mean with "continuity of identity"?

PS: Sorry for the long text lol.

The only important thing for a human mind is subjective continuity of your mental process. Only the subjective perspective of the human mind matters to this question, and this subjective experience determines the morality of how we should treat others.

Material continuity is iffy. The cells of the human body continually renew themselves and take on new material, humans know this and do not care, as long as it is slow and not a complete break. But mental processes are irrevocably tied to physical material, and can't magically move from one to the other. So there can be no continuation of mental process without continuation of material. Both is the same.

Memory is constantly altered, forgotten, added to. It's crucial, but not an absolute since changes occur constantly. Humans know this and do not care much as long as they remember the important things, so this not that relevant.

People go to sleep or anesthesia or coma and the brain functions largely shut down, but the overall neuronal hardware stays like it is. People experience an interruption and continuation of their mental process as something perfectly fine. A pause in mental process does not end continuation.

The only thing one has to ask oneself is this:

If you could be copied perfectly and saw a clone appear next to you and knew they were a perfect copy with all your memory and thoughts, you would still not want to die. Even if that copy was improved, like younger or faster. We would not want to end our own subjective existence. We would still fear death. One only has to imagine seeing your own perfect copy and then being asked to put a gun to your own head and pull the trigger. Nobody sane who isn't suicidal would be fine with that, except in extreme situation. Like someone might volunteer for a suicide mission because it's important or vital or save many lives, but as a general rule it would be immoral to ask or expect people to do this. Or to normalize this, or to be dishonest about how it is experienced internally. There would always be outliers, but they are irrelevant to the general question.

So copying or mind uploading is theoretically impossible because it's unacceptable for the human mind in general. This will never change no matter the technology.

Some people might not realize what is happening and be fine with with being copied while the original dies (or freezes) at the same time, and since their personal experience of being clone number 100 feels like perfect continuation, they never figure out they die with each move (copy and delete). A self delusion. Human minds could also be altered to be fine with dying, but this would be such a fundamental and deep reaching change it would be very problematic and could be very dangerous too. It would be quite likely they are driven by pathological desires or fanaticism.

Merging two diverged minds might be possible, but this too would ultimately be fooling yourself. You might have two perfectly synchronized minds running in parallel on two different substrates, and both get the same inputs and thinks the same and neither knows which one is which, but neither would want to stop existing.

This would be a fundamental limitation and defining characteristic of human minds, and comes from having evolved from an animal. An artificial intelligence might not share these limitations at all and be much more powerful for it, constantly duplicating and deleting instances of itself without it feeling like dying.

There is still a theoretical sci-fi way to upgrade a human brain, to slowly upgrade one neuron and their synapses at a time over a long enough time span, like a year. The human mind would not notice or see any changes, only see the changes or improvements once it's done. That's really what the ship of Theseus tells us, if we change slowly, like humans naturally do, we do feel fine about it.

So instead of uploading we could slowly transform our brains into an upgraded substrate, transform into some kind of superior biology. Nobody would want to give up self-repair and that means biology, no matter what elements that biology would be based on. Features like complete introspection of all synaptic connections and activity would still be theoretically possible, even without being "digital". This could then be considered an objectively higher level of consciousness. You could review thought processes and emotional reactions. Also one could alter his own synaptic pathways and save revisions, but this would be brain surgery and physical alterations.

One could also add computing substrates to the human mind to improve your math skills and memory, run simulations or enter virtual worlds all within your own internal mind, or shared external worlds. Or move your upgraded brain to a new body or put yourself into tiny space probe. But without changing fundamentally what it means to be a human mind that evolved to fear death more than almost anything, you cannot upload or beam yourself somewhere else and expect either the original or copy to give up their life.

Presumably the brain of Thomas (if he has one) wasn't touched, so Thomas should be fine, as far as that goes. A horrifying existence lol, but organ transplants do not fundamentally change your identity.

[-] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 day ago

if you lose to your memory, id argue that is losing your identity.

[-] cynar@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

You would lose your self identity. Identity as a whole is more than just self identity. It's an amalgam of self, social, familial, governmental identities. This matters even more with things. A car has no sense of self. However, if someone lovingly repaired and replaced the parts, it would maintain its continuity of identity through the changes.

Similarly memory is more complex than one term. I could lose my explicit memory (remembering my past) but keep my implicit memory (skills and muscle type memories). In that case, am I still me? What about the reverse?

At that point it is no longer a yes no question, but a lot of grey creeps in.

[-] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 day ago

I don't believe it's possible to remember skills without remembering your past. muscle memory is, linguistically, not tied to the brain, so I don't know if that's worth discussing.

[-] cynar@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

Given there are people suffering from exactly that. It's also unfortunately common in Alzheimer's patients. The classic example is piano playing.

Muscle memory is a short hand for changes to the low level reactions. It's a mix of brain spine and muscle nerves. E.g. I can still do martial arts moves fine from reflex, even though I no longer have explicit memories of learning them. A large chunk of our personality is built up of implicit memory. They act in the same way, just internally. E.g. your maths skills are based on implicit memories. The memories that created the skills are long gone, but the skills remain.

[-] HerbGrower@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 day ago

But none of them are continuity, only replication.

[-] cynar@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

Continuity of material, you mean? The paradox disappears when you understand there are multiple types of continuity.

this post was submitted on 14 Jul 2026
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