137
submitted 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) by Saymaz@lemmygrad.ml to c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[-] MarxMadness@hexbear.net 17 points 5 days ago

That chart shows the deadliest months happening under Biden, a bump to about half the peak monthly killings under Trump, then the eventual "ceasefire" stage we're at now. The worst of it ended under Trump.

Considering they could have stopped Israel at any time, Democrats get zero credit for more killings happening on their watch and the eventual "ceasefire" happening on Trump's.

we have better odds of making the democrats change course than the republicans

Not if we vote for them even when they commit the crime of crimes. If votes are conditional on them doing good things (or at least not committing crimes against humanity), they might do good things. If votes are unconditional, they'll do what they want.

[-] AHemlocksLie@lemmy.zip 2 points 5 days ago

I think the bigger factor in how much they get away with is the fact that they can always point to the looming threat of the republicans. If democrats started consistently winning, one, republicans would be forced to stop pulling so hard to the right, and two, they'd have to compete against other democrats, not republicans, and so trying to sell us on republican-lite very quickly stops being enough.

[-] Chana@hexbear.net 11 points 4 days ago

This is the incoherence of liberal electoral brain. If Democrats consistently win, then you, the voter, have even less leverage. Only close races are those where the voters "matter" to electoral parties. That's why presidential elections focus on "swing states", including the vast amounts of money going into ad buys and ground campaigns in those states. A Pennsylvania vote is worth way more than a California vote, i.e., a Pennsylvania voter has more leverage over the outcome. These are equivalent ideas, even though again, each vote is all but meaningless politically.

If Democrats simply win all the time, then y ou will rapidly learn to whom they actually cleave. Who butters their bread. It ain't you. I mean, you should know this already, but I guess it needs to smack you in the face or something.

[-] AHemlocksLie@lemmy.zip 1 points 3 days ago

This all sounds logical on the surface, but I don't think it pans out like that. Once Republicans stop winning elections, Democrats stop using that as an excuse to move right to court centrists and disappointed Republicans. Once Republicans stop winning, two things happen. One, the immediate contest moves to the primary, where everyone is most directly vulnerable to their constituents since turnout is especially low for these. If Republicans are crushed in the election instead of narrowly losing, Democrats thinking about reelection have to make extra sure they're palatable to the base because that's who's going to sink them and replace them in the primary. Two, since a first-past-the-post voting system always inevitably results in a two party system, if the Republicans prove themselves truly nonviable, the party dies, and another takes their place. The new party is obviously going to have to move left since right has proven itself nonviable, and so the contest moves towards left wing ideas.

[-] Chana@hexbear.net 2 points 3 days ago

This all sounds logical on the surface, but I don't think it pans out like that. Once Republicans stop winning elections, Democrats stop using that as an excuse to move right to court centrists and disappointed Republicans.

Yes I know, this is your fictional baseless nonsense you keep repeating as if nobody has responded to it, including what I just wrote and that you haven't addressed. We already have examples where Democrats have won consistently and they didn't do this. You have examples right in front of you at the state and municipal level and Dems fight tooth and nail to prevent universal healthcare at the state level, they constantly bump funding for cops, they send cops after protesters, they cleave to Israel and use every bad faith excuse to go after pro-Palestine organizers, going after their schooling and careers, they implement austerity for social programs and dehumanize the unhoused. At no point did using the logic of always voting Democrat achieve anything, it is actually disenfranchising to think that way and tell others to do so.

Once Republicans stop winning, two things happen. One, the immediate contest moves to the primary, where everyone is most directly vulnerable to their constituents since turnout is especially low for these.

Primaries are controlled by the parties in power, as is ballot access. The contest "moves" there in the sense that multi-party democracy is dead on its face in those places, as the Democrats can exclusively focus on punching left in the interest of their donors and connections. They focus hard on excluding even left liberals like Greens. They then move to trying to control those primaries to keep out challengers as best they can. Redistrict to remove left politicians, for example. And don't forget, the party is not a public thing, it is a private venture that can change its own rules basically however it wants in most cases, arbitrarily moving qualification thresholds to remove challengers. Do you think cutting off ballot access for left challengers is a symptom of perma-elected Democrats moving left? Do you have literally any experience trying to make something happen electorally? You have clearly never realized who your full set of political enemies are if you want, say, to end the genocide in Palestine.

If Republicans are crushed in the election instead of narrowly losing, Democrats thinking about reelection have to make extra sure they're palatable to the base because that's who's going to sink them and replace them in the primary.

In reality they actually try to engineer the primary so that they do face the less popular Republican rather than a slightly-left-of-them Democrat, Green, socialist, etc. Depending on the structure of the primary of course, that is their ideal. You have surely already seen this in how Dems fight hard to engineer contests to be not between themselves and a milquetoast socdem (e.g. Clinton vs Sanders) but instead be between them and some braying racist (Clinton vs Trump).

I have already pointed out that palatable to "the base" is antithetical to them and that it isn't even really a base, it is their left flank that they string along. Maybe you belong to that group, the only reason I qualify is that it's unclear you have any left wing politics at all. "The base" is who they manipulate into supporting them (you're trying to do that yourself), not who they actually cater to in policy. This is a basic lesson you should realize about the party: they don't deliver for their "base". They fight as hard as they can to avoid doing so. That dynamic is the most important one for understanding the Democratic Party and what it truly is as a political project. It's why they seem "incompetent": they don't actually want to do the slightly left things that would be popular, delivering material benefit to their people, because most of those policies would come at the cost of bourgeois interests. You can go and join the party and watch that dead end in progress if you'd like. See how much time they spend on donor lists and dinners and trimming planks and undermining primaries and conventions.

Two, since a first-past-the-post voting system always inevitably results in a two party system, if the Republicans prove themselves truly nonviable, the party dies, and another takes their place.

The Democratic Party wants a viable Republican Party. They literally say this openly.

You are trying to describe a realignment in the form of an entire party displacing another. This hasn't happened since the American Civil War. Do you have any unstanding of why that hasn't happened in 150 years? What about the bourgeois electoral system prevents this from happening even though FPTP allegedly makes it locally quasi-stable? Surely there should be examples of rupture at the state level, right? Why not? Who benefits from this not happening? What function does kayfabe opposition play?

The new party is obviously going to have to move left since right has proven itself nonviable, and so the contest moves towards left wing ideas.

There are left parties that have tried this. What is their experience? Do you even know.

[-] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 7 points 4 days ago

republicans would be forced to stop pulling so hard to the right

Spoken like someone burying their head in the sand for 30 years

[-] AHemlocksLie@lemmy.zip 1 points 3 days ago

Could you point to the time in the last 30 years where Republican candidates and policies were nonviable enough to make them lose more than a single election? Every time Democrats get into power, people complain that they didn't do enough fast enough, which is a valid complaint, but then they reelect the god damn Republicans as if they had any chance of giving a shit. Clinton elected? Republicans take the whole Congress next time, and the next president after Clinton is a Republican. Obama elected? Republicans take half of Congress two years later, keep it the rest of his presidency, obstructing everything just for the love of the game, took the other half in his last two years of office, and the next president is a Republican. Biden elected? Whole presidency, Republicans control half of Congress and obstruct religiously.

In the last 30 years, Democrats have had about 2 years where they were not HEAVILY obstructed by Republicans with substantial power in a best case scenario. So when exactly in the last 30 years did we do anything to meaningfully force Republicans to stop pulling right? Looks an awful lot to me like every time we elect a Democrat, we bitch and moan about how they aren't everything we want and then elect Republicans. Every single fucking time in the last 30 years.

[-] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 4 points 3 days ago

Every time Democrats get into power, people complain that they didn't do enough fast enough, which is a valid complaint, but then they reelect the god damn Republicans

And you don't seem to get that this is by design. The purpose of a system is what it does.

[-] Chana@hexbear.net 1 points 2 days ago

There are many states that have had Democrat majorities (even supermajorities) as well as governor for multiple elections. They always have plenty of excuses for why they can't do things in the interests of common people vs. bourgeois interests.

[-] AHemlocksLie@lemmy.zip 0 points 5 days ago

Sorry to split this, but got interrupted and accidentally mixed things up and only responded to the last half. I'd edit, but if this takes long enough, you might respond to that, and it's just cleaner this way, so my bad.

That chart shows the deadliest months happening under Biden, a bump to about half the peak monthly killings under Trump, then the eventual “ceasefire” stage we’re at now. The worst of it ended under Trump.

Considering they could have stopped Israel at any time, Democrats get zero credit for more killings happening on their watch and the eventual “ceasefire” happening on Trump’s.

You could also view it as Israel started it while Biden was in office, and he got the violence cut by 3/4 in half a year. Meanwhile, under Trump, the violence managed to as much as quadruple from when he came into office. Or, put another way, no month under Biden was worse than the first, compared to under Trump in which 2/3 months were more violent than when he came into office.

And again, I'm not saying the response was perfect or even good. I'm just saying there's a clear trend of things calming down under Biden and ramping up once Trump gets into office. Now, after Israel is facing global backlash and has been trying to squash it for multiple years, Trump gets into office when Israel is forced to come to the table in spite of himself.

[-] Chana@hexbear.net 8 points 4 days ago

You could also view it as Israel started it while Biden was in office, and he got the violence cut by 3/4 in half a year.

This isn't Marvel superheroes kid. You don't get to just makes things up and say, "look how good they did maybe". While these death count trends can't be read in any of these ways, the basic fact remains: Biden pretend to work on a ceasefire, Trump got one rapidly. Now, even the ceasefire is largely bullshit, even that is more PR than reflective of on-the-ground reality, but that's the scraps that liberals were conned into accepting and the line that Biden wasn't willing to cross against Israel. The lie of Biden attempting a ceasefire is laid bare already, so you should know that him working to "cut" the deaths is fantastical nonsense, literally make-believe. Again, Biden was a staunch advocate for Israeli settler-colonialism and the ongoing occupation for decades and materially supported Israel in its genocide to the hilt. He was not "working against it, but not enough". He was working for it. He is a genocider. The guy you supported did a genocide and you still don't have humility about it.

It's time to drop the pretense that Biden just wasn't "good enough". He was a demon. The question is not how a good guy made a mistake, but how a bad guy conned you and how you're failing to cope with it.

[-] AHemlocksLie@lemmy.zip 1 points 3 days ago

Again, Biden was a staunch advocate for Israeli settler-colonialism and the ongoing occupation for decades and materially supported Israel in its genocide to the hilt. He was not “working against it, but not enough”. He was working for it. He is a genocider. The guy you supported did a genocide and you still don’t have humility about it.

Even though it's apparently a mortal sin here to admit that life has prevented me from devoting every waking moment to staying abreast of current events the world over, I'm gonna say that while I'm aware he has historically supported Israel, I'm unaware of evidence that he's endorsed the illegal settlements. Before you act like an asshole about it, reminder that I'm here willing to learn and openly inviting evidence that challenges what I thought I knew before I came in here.

It’s time to drop the pretense that Biden just wasn’t “good enough”. He was a demon. The question is not how a good guy made a mistake, but how a bad guy conned you and how you’re failing to cope with it.

I didn't say shit about him being a good guy who made a mistake. I called him less shit than the alternative. I understand that that seems hard to accomplish in terms of a genocide, but given we're still genociding and also invading Iran, supporting an Israeli invasion of Lebanon, potentially preparing to invade Cuba, and seized a foreign head of state... Maybe that wasn't an entirely incorrect assessment. The same people who want to tell me things slowed down under Trump with the "ceasefire" are the same people who ridiculed me for the fundamental idea of trying to slow it down while we work on stopping it in other ways.

[-] Chana@hexbear.net 2 points 3 days ago

Even though it's apparently a mortal sin here to admit that life has prevented me from devoting every waking moment to staying abreast of current events the world over

You're still pretending to be a victim for spouting pro-genocider bullshit in ignorance. You even try to flip "they know things I don't and didn't appreciate my bullshit" into being our problem rather than yours. Perhaps this is spiritual Zionism?

Nobody requires you to know anything, actually. You can just, you know, shut the fuck up until you do. Learn to ask questions. Learn to learn. Learn that maybe you don't always deserve to have an opinion.

Though, I will point out that your hyperbole is revealing. It does not take much effort to know these things. People the world over konw them, it's not a full time job. But you have to be willing to start and to accumulate knowledge, not whine that you don't automatically know what's going on and deserve to share pro-genocider opinions despite not even trying.

I'm gonna say that while I'm aware he has historically supported Israel, I'm unaware of evidence that he's endorsed the illegal settlements.

What the fuck are you even talking about. I didn't mention "illegal settlements". But Biden has supported Israel to the hilt for his entire political life, and the premise of Israel is the settler colonization of Palestine. What do you think illegal settlements are? What does it mean when he gives them constant material support during genocide? When he brushes aside the supposed red line of killing Americans? You're not thinking critically.

Before you act like an asshole about it, reminder that I'm here willing to learn and openly inviting evidence that challenges what I thought I knew before I came in here.

No I"m not going to reverse teh way I treat you, you have not stopped beign combative. YOu say you're willing to learn and inviting evidence, but you are (1) responding to a bar I didn't set and ignoring the rest of what I said (being evasive) and (2) aren't asking for evidence. Do you know how to ask a question?

I didn't say shit about him being a good guy who made a mistake. I called him less shit than the alternative.

You absolutely framed Biden et al as people who could "do more" to "slow down" genocide, erasing their true role as active material proponents of the genocide. You absolutely did not frame them as those proponents, as enemies of Palestine. I am resopnding to your soft pedaling of Democrats' role and defaultism that they are not trying hard enough in the right direction rather than trying very hard in the wrong one.

I understand that that seems hard to accomplish in terms of a genocide

See, you still can't frame this as a genocide begun under and supported by Biden. YOur defaultism on lesser evilism presumes taht the bad things are forwarded by Republicans and Democrats are just failing to oppose or be "less bad enough". In reality, Dems are the big bad in this situation, they did the worse thing, and you cannot cope with it.

but given we're still genociding and also invading Iran, supporting an Israeli invasion of Lebanon, potentially preparing to invade Cuba, and seized a foreign head of state... Maybe that wasn't an entirely incorrect assessment.

See how we have to repeat ourselves because you don't read. I already responded to this in another comment. YOu just repeat yourself in various places because you don't read. The short of it is: you are blissfully ignoring the war crimes of Democrats to pretend that bad things happening under Republicans proves your opint. You wish to believe, again, in the default lesser evilism, and just repeat it over and over again, never actually asking how you'd do a more fair comparison, actively avoiding using appropriate language to attribute roles. THis is because you are a victim of propaganda, and you could escape it, but you have to stop resopnding to every comment and read and be honest.

The same people who want to tell me things slowed down under Trump with the "ceasefire" are the same people who ridiculed me for the fundamental idea of trying to slow it down while we work on stopping it in other ways.

Oh? What were you ridiculed for, specifically?

this post was submitted on 27 May 2026
137 points (100.0% liked)

Chapotraphouse

14376 readers
506 users here now

Banned? DM Wmill to appeal.

No anti-nautilism posts. See: Eco-fascism Primer

Slop posts go in c/slop. Don't post low-hanging fruit here.

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS