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Do explain how they facilitated a genocide.
Or STFU. Seriously. Explain why you think they deserved to be murdered in the US in front of a museum for having worked at the embassy. Seekrit MOSSAD maybe? Did they know (((others))) in the banking halls of power and the media and were plotting with them?? You have the answers, obviously, do share them. Or admit you don't.
You are basically advocating for murdering US postal and social service workers...
Nope. Not even close. Stop making stuff up asshole. As I have explained elsewhere on the thread, culpability is relative to role/actions and the severity of the organization’s crimes. I also explained that none of this violence is good. I’m not advocating for violence, I’m explaining that is inevitable when people and organizations perpetuate unbelievable violence, it’s going to blow back. I DONT WANT VIOLENCE. That’s why I’m so outraged at Israel’s fucking violence.
You really are, the US is the primary funder and arms provider of the genocide in Palestine, it is a christo-fascist oligarchy built on multiple genocides and the two largest scale ethnic displacements in world history. Neither of which have had substantive reparations paid for. The state is actively in the process of in large part ethnically motivated murder, mass incarceration, mass displacement, family separation, torture, and placement in concentration camps. By your logic anyone working for that state is culpable and a legitimate target of political violence. Be logically consistent or get out.
I basically agree with you assessment of the US. You are either unaware of or ignoring the nuance I added to the description of my position elsewhere in the thread. But, whatever.
Yeah, that's a much more reasonable take, it isn't what you said at first though.
So anyone working for a part of the state is responsible for the actions of that state?
The undersecretary of Education is responsible for splitting up mothers and children at the border in 2017?
That's the same reasoning. Show that it is not, if you can.
I don’t think it’s a binary. Culpability is relative to one’s role and actions. The severity of state action is also a factor and as that severity increases, culpability expands. I want to be explicit, I hate violence and I wish this had not happened. That being said, such violence is an inevitable consequence of circumstances like what the State of Israel and the US are orchestrating. To quote JFK:
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
You stated that these two murder victems "facilitated a genocide". Then you explained that that was because they worked for the state of Israel.
Now their presumed culpability is relative to their role and actions, which brings us back to the very first question - what were their roles and actions that made them culpable for the genocide in Palestine?
The embassy exists to maintain international support and cooperation in all areas.
Like I'm iffy on all this, I'm smelling some potential antisemitism with the location and everything. But the Israeli embassy to the United states is not bloodless. Their purpose is to maintain positive relations with their largest supplier of arms and armaments. That's not the only reason they exist, it's probably not the majority of their interactions. I'm sure they do plenty of good, but it's one of the goals of their diplomacy. The Israeli embassy to Kenya is far less complicit.
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Everything here indicates that they were intelligent, well informed and thoughtful. That makes their participation in this outrageously inhuman project that much more egregious.
I still don't see their "participation" being very clear at all, and just can't agree on that point.
I get people are angry as fuck about the outrageous war crimes and genocide, but I don't think gunning down random Jews in the streets of the US is really a solid counter-strategy. In fact, in one way of looking at it, it's just as bad.
Violence begets violence and I think we are in agreement that it’s all bad. No reasonable person wants to see people getting gunned down in the street. I will challenge you on your assertions that they were random, and that they were gunned down for being “Jews”. We should interrogate the motivations and methods of this murderer, and if it turns out to be motivated by ethnic hatred, let’s call it out. So far the reporting has not shown that to my knowledge and there is a real danger in conflating hatred of the genocide with hatred of Jewish people.
So you think they were specifically targeted for working at the Israeli embassy but not because they were Jewish visitors to a Jewish museum? That's threading a ridiculous needle. I'm not even sure what a narrative like that would be? Is the gunman a super sleuth who works in IT at a non-profit in his spare time?
Well, I don’t think it takes a super sleuth. I suspect he was stalking embassy staff, but let’s see what the investigation turns up. If he was just looking to murder Jewish people, why did he stop with these two? As far as I can tell from the reports, he was hanging out with others in the building for at least ten minutes after the murders, before the police arrived and he turned himself in. Also, the manifesto he provided specifically calls out the genocide and not “Jews”. Again, subject to change if different reporting comes out, but that’s what we have so far.
That's wild. That you would think he's specifically targeting people who support the Israeli occupation of Gaza but specifically not Jews.
Wow.
It’s wild, and incredibly antisemitic BTW, that you won’t segment the State of Israel and its incredibly racist and inhumanly violent project, from Jewish people as a whole.
Listen, I get it. It’s been a fundamental goal of that fascist state to conflate itself and Judaism holistically. It’s an attempt to somehow rationalize their dishonesty and brutality in the minds of well intentioned people. But, I would implore you to consider how unfair it is to Jewish people worldwide, to equate them with the unimaginable injustice and violence of one colonial nation.
I’d argue that’s exactly what I’m doing.
I’m - not exactly sure what we’re disagreeing about here. Are you saying expecting a Jewish person to support the country of Israel in general is horribly racist?
No.
Point #1: Conflating the idea of ‘support for Israel’ with Judaism is antisemitic. While support for Israel is a thing that many Jewish people do, it is not a characteristic of being Jewish.
Point #2: Conflating violence against supporters of Israel as being necessarily violence against Jewish people depends on and reinforces point #1, and is therefore antisemitic.
Israel and many of its supporters want to make these conflations, because they want to frame any critique of the nation or its actions as a critique of Jewish people. Basically, they want to launder their crimes behind the goodwill that people have toward Jewish people. That is inaccurate, unfair, and dangerous. Unfortunately, it is infused in most of the media coverage of these murders, and being used to provide cover for Israel’s genocide and other crimes. I’m just calling it out when I encounter it.
That's a really bizarre take. I don't know anyone who is Jewish who specifically argues against the existence of Israel. I have read about, like, the idea that "Israel" can't exist until the messiah appears and in the early days of its creaton that was a schism of sorts, but I don't think they go so far as to not support the Jewish state with that name or the people who live there in general.
And as for supporters of Israel who aren't Jewish, I guess I'd have to ask what the context is - what "supporter" is defined as and so on. I imagine there are people who support Israel who are not Jewish, and any of them I might know would be very much against the genocide at the same time.
In general terms, if someone attacks an Israeli-sponsored event, or museum, or whatever, the odds are very very good they intend to attack Jewish people. To think that's racist is kinda weird.
It reminds me a little of the sort of David Icke position where Zionism is certainly behind a number of global conspiracies and truly evil to its core, but has absolutely nothing to do with the Jewish religion or Jewish people. I think that's got a whiff of truth but is in practical terms not true and essentially creates an environment to hate on Jewish people while absolving themselves of racist charges.
I’m not talking about the existence of Israel, or some asshole’s conspiracy lunacy. I’m just talking about the brutality and crimes of Israel.
Are you saying that because you don’t know any Jewish people that have a problem with Israel’s actions, that being a supporter of Israel is part of being Jewish? Are you really comfortable making such a generalization?
No.
I’m saying I know Jewish people who have a huge problem with Israel’s actions and support Israel and, yes that support is part of how they identify as Jewish.
And I’m totally comfortable with that as a generalization because I haven’t seen anything like a large group of people who are just one of those things (with the notable exception of Evangelical ‘Christians’ who support Israel, and their crimes, and are not Jewish).
There's nuance here. Janitors at an Israeli government building? Probably not. State department employees serving an overseas mission to represent and lobby for your genocide? Yeah.
And you're sure that’s what they were doing.
By working there they were implicit in helping the mission there so yes. I wouldn't have joined the German Embassy in 1941 even as a functionary unless I was a Nazi.
And if they joined before Oct 7th 2023?
So what if someone works for the US DHS, FBI, or the foreign service? Guilty?
This is the stupidest edgelord take of all edgelord takes.
This guy is a certifiable fucking dumbass.
So you're all for gunning down anyone working for the US government in the street.
Cool.
To the earlier example of the undersecretary of education; they are enabling family separation at the border?
Is it not that complicated?
Why don't you just go work there and get these answers. They got 2 brand new openings lmao.