Rhoeri comments on Another day, another news article on how Trump turned out to be SO MUCH WORSE

[–] Rhoeri@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago (27 children)

Is that sarcastic nonsense at the end of your rhetoric you admitting that your protest was ineffective and a waste of time?

Because if so- then all those non-voters and third party protest votes got trump elected.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago (26 children)

I VOTED FOR HER. But thanks for ignoring every substantive argument made about how the Dems fucked this up. It's super fun seeing people like you learn nothing from these defeats! Can't wait to watch this happen again in 2028 because you guys refuse to hold Democrats accountable for campaigns designed to appeal donors and consultants instead of voters! Keep enabling them, it's going great!

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[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago (25 children)

You voted for her while explaining how awful you thought she was, which put other voters off voting for her. The election was won for Donald "ethnic cleansing" Trump by people staying home because Harris was so flawed, a point made by republicans and useful left wing idiots alike.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (24 children)

"Yes, you voted for her, but you vocally criticized her. You're not allowed to speak out against the party like that." Do you fucking hear yourself yet? Do you still not understand why people call you Blue MAGA?

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (23 children)

“Yes, you voted for her, but you vocally criticized her. You’re not allowed to speak out against the party like that.”

Do you not think campaigning has an effect?

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[–] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 4 points 2 years ago* (10 children)

If all it took was people on social grumbling about their terrible policy plank to sink the campaign, maybe, just maybe, they ran a shit campaign and there's lessons to be learned.

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (9 children)

If all it took was people on social grumbling about their terrible policy plank to sink the campaign, maybe, just maybe, they ran a shit campaign and there’s lessons to be learned.

"The Dems ran a shit campaign" and "Maybe running negative PR campaigns against a candidate reduces a candidate's support" are not mutually exclusive options.

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[–] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 1 point 2 years ago* (8 children)

Tl;Dr the election was the only place that we had to have that discussion.

Look, there was a primary in the literal sense, I voted in it, but there wasn't a primary in the practical sense. There were no debates, no discussion of his platform for '24, Biden didn't campaign, and the Democratic party / Biden Campaign worked HARD to shut down questions about Biden's viability or the Mandela effect where everyone seemed to remember him promising to be a single term president. I mean, I could swear I remember it too; I'm still puzzled about where so many folks got the idea. Then, once we were way past the primary, we found out that Biden was nowhere even near viable shape for the campaign trail. He put on the most disastrously bad debate performance in presidential debate history against an opponent that should have been (and was just four years prior) a joke. None of his other "see? He's fine" appearances before or after inspired much faith either. So, we basically ended up with Harris and zero discussion about her platform. At first, I was really excited and eager to see what her platform would be. As time went on, though, I started seeing more and more that reminded me of HRC '16 and less meat to get excited about. If there had been a real primary in a practical sense, I would not have voted for Harris (and didn't vote for Biden, I think I voted Phillips) on the platform she had.

The primaries are a time for the campaigns to work with voters and figure this stuff out, see what appeals to the base and is likely to get them to turn out. We never got to have that conversation with Harris, we barely had it at all with Biden. The only place we could have it is during the election, and my hope was (and remains) that campaigns are agile enough to respond when their base gives them feedback. I don't support the Democrats because they're Democrats, I support them because they offer the closest practical path to policies I want to see enacted. I want to see good policy win, and I think good policy will get the democrats their wins. We can't ever improve if we can't be accept criticism, and when it comes to politics, the appropriate way to criticize is a bit like finding the appropriate way to protest according to Fox News. We need to have these conversations to get better, and I absolutely do blame the Harris and Biden campaigns for putting themselves in such vulnerable positions and failing to respond appropriately to criticism. Their job is to get elected, and they failed.

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (7 children)

Shitty as it was, there was no third or fourth option to be had; once Harris was in the driver's seat, it was going to be her or Trump, simply by the way our political system is set up. With that in mind, going forward, all questions would have to boil down to "Is it preferable for Harris to enter into the presidency, or Trump?"

If it's election-time in 1930 Weimar Germany, and my only viable choices in the election district I'm in are the SDP and the Nazis, banging the drum 24/7 on how the SDP is anti-LGBT (true) might not be the greatest choice in the coming election considering that the only other choice are the Nazis, who are MORE anti-LGBT plus a whole host of other horrific things. And if the Nazis themselves are beating that same drum, telling LGBT folk that the SDP is anti-LGBT, I might step back and consider whose electoral victory I'm contributing to by my rhetoric and what consequences it will have - such as on, say, LGBT folk.

We're sitting here with literal fascists in government. "Our aristocrats weren't good enough, or didn't take the correct stance on foreign policy!" isn't the correct answer to why this election turned out the way it did. Or if it is, that reflects such a broken attitude on the part of the American electorate that it's not much better than the actual conclusion - most Americans do not care if fascism comes into power. And that includes everyone who didn't vote, or protest voted. And many of those who didn't vote or protest voted were inspired to do so by rhetoric encouraging apathy from both conservatives and their useful idiots.

Should the Dems have done a whole host of things differently, including having actual primaries? Are the Dems spineless corporate weasels? Are the Dems beholden to Israeli interests even in the face of a divided base? Yes, yes, yes. But none of that justifies "We're going to let or help the literal fascists win."

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[–] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago (6 children)

Look, my dude. The democrats were basically just trailing the republicans by maybe 12 years. At best, this victory would have bought us just a few more years of uneasy status quo and failing to address the causes and conditions that brought us to this point. As things were, we were getting our Nazi arc sooner or later. I'd rather choose no Nazis at all, and have the uncomfortable conversations needed to make that happen. Until we address the conditions that brought us to this point, we would, at any rate, inevitably tip into open fascism; shutting up, falling in line, and hoping that they'll win if we don't think bad thoughts about the democrats won't fix it. Let's face it, there wasn't a political appetite for fixing it in the next four years, as there wasn't in the last four years (see: Merrick Garland). We needed to fix it, and we still do.

Just so I'm clear, I've read chunks of Project 2025. My kids are on the chopping block. I am begging the democrats to do better than being diet Nazi.

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago* (5 children)

Look, my dude. The democrats were basically just trailing the republicans by maybe 12 years.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Holy fucking shit.

Do you not remember the Republicans OR the Democrats 12 fucking years ago?

At best, this victory would have bought us just a few more years of uneasy status quo and failing to address the causes and conditions that brought us to this point. As things were, we were getting our Nazi arc sooner or later.

Oh, great, the "Let's just get it over with" argument.

Until we address the conditions that brought us to this point, we would, at any rate, inevitably tip into open fascism; shutting up, falling in line, and hoping that they’ll win if we don’t think bad thoughts about the democrats won’t fix it. Let’s face it, there wasn’t a political appetite for fixing it in the next four years, as there wasn’t in the last four years (see: Merrick Garland). We needed to fix it, and we still do.

Oh, okay, so are we in a better position to address those conditions now that Trump was elected, or worse?

Worse?

In every sense?

Huh.

That you're sitting here saying the Dems were just following the GOP and that the Dems are 'Diet Nazi', more now than they were previously, is exactly the kind of fact-free vibes-based fucking politics that I expect from my fellow Americans, and that fascists leverage so easily into voter apathy. I suppose it was stupid of me to expect people who took enough of an interest in politics to discuss it to have higher standards.

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[–] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 1 point 2 years ago (4 children)

Not necessarily let's get it over with as much as "let's stop ratcheting right in order to win some elections and make stuff better". Since 2016, there has NEVER been a good time to vote third party or criticize the democrats. Basically, since Trump got on scene, the democrats became so completely fragile that you can't say bad stuff about them or disagree with them or they'll lose :(

But let's get real. The Harris campaign didn't have a lot of meat to offer people, their entire strategy was "not Trump". That's not great, but then it's also "not Trump" while telling everyone that the economy is fine actually, that they're going to keep giving Israel billions in bombs but don't worry because they're totally going to do the ceasefire this time, that they're going to crack down on the border even harder, and that they're going to support expanding fracking. They weren't saying "we're the opposite of Trump" when they said "not Trump". This might as well have been a Republican primary with John Kasich vs Trump.

Well, anyway, I guess a few of us shattered the Harris campaign into a trillion tiny pieces when we tried to push for good policies that might have actually won them the election. Snark aside, I am legitimately disappointed that this is where things are at; we should have been able to fix it, but we didn't have the political will, and now we've already got democrats signalling the eagerness to work with the Trump presidency. We're here now, can we please talk about how to make stuff better yet?

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Not necessarily let’s get it over with as much as “let’s stop ratcheting right in order to win some elections and make stuff better”.

Okay. Did the Trump victory make 'ratcheting right' less likely?

No?

It made it more likely?

And reduces the chance of winning elections?

And ensures that everything is going to get worse?

There was no fucking reason for anyone who isn't a fascist to sit this fucking one out.

Since 2016, there has NEVER been a good time to vote third party or criticize the democrats. Basically, since Trump got on scene, the democrats became so completely fragile that you can’t say bad stuff about them or disagree with them or they’ll lose :(

Since Trump got on the scene, we've had a literal fascist who has the only other party in the country in lockstep behind him; yes, it is kind of important that he be defeated at the ballot box? Jesus fucking Christ.

But let’s get real. The Harris campaign didn’t have a lot of meat to offer people, their entire strategy was “not Trump”. That’s not great, but then it’s also “not Trump” while telling everyone that the economy is fine actually, that they’re going to keep giving Israel billions in bombs but don’t worry because they’re totally going to do the ceasefire this time,

Which has been bipartisan for the past forty fucking years. It's hardly proof that the Dems were 'following 12 years behind the GOP'. The Dem platform was the most anti-Israel I've seen in my lifetime, and while that's damnation by faint praise, the message sent by the fucking electorate was: "The more pro-Israel candidate has won"

that they’re going to crack down on the border even harder,

Almost 80% of Americans buy into the idea that there's a 'crisis' on the border, with broad bipartisan support. Do you really think that's the issue that discouraged people from voting for Harris?

They weren’t saying “we’re the opposite of Trump” when they said “not Trump”. This might as well have been a Republican primary with John Kasich vs Trump.

Ah, yes, John Kasich's well known clean energy, free college, marijuana decriminalization, corporate tax raising, LGBT supporting, pro-DEI, anti-price gouging, pro-choice, public healthcare expansion platform.

Well, anyway, I guess a few of us shattered the Harris campaign into a trillion tiny pieces when we tried to push for good policies that might have actually won them the election. Snark aside, I am legitimately disappointed that this is where things are at; we should have been able to fix it, but we didn’t have the political will, and now we’ve already got democrats signalling the eagerness to work with the Trump presidency.

"People in government want to work with those who hold power in government"

Who could have predicted this? If only there was something we could've done, like put someone else in power in the government.

We’re here now, can we please talk about how to make stuff better yet?

Sure, we can bring up some form of action, and then everyone who played purity politics can say that our allies aren't good enough to unite against fascists with, again, and we can repeat the 2024 election for every undertaking we have from here on out, electoral or otherwise.

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[–] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 1 point 2 years ago (2 children)

Look, blame me if it makes you feel better, but imo the democrats were trying to play with fire by trapping voters between Trump and their donors and betting that they wouldn't pick Trump. Then, they went and did it a second time. All I'm saying then and now is that we'd be better off-- both in terms of being further from Nazis AND in terms of winning elections-- not playing with that fire and actually doing a meaningful campaign. It's like watching your kid touch the stove twice in a row (while telling them not to, mind you) and getting mad at the stove for burning them.

Ah, yes, John Kasich’s well known clean energy, free college, marijuana decriminalization, corporate tax raising, LGBT supporting, pro-DEI, anti-price gouging, pro-choice, public healthcare expansion platform

Harris was some of those, yes, but I think you're being pretty generous in a few places here.

I'm not happy Trump won, and that's why I think it's important to hold Democrats accountable for their fuckups that got us here, rather than letting them blame the voters. I think that Not Trump isn't a compelling message- regardless of whether you or I think it SHOULD be- and that the democrats, much more than a few dorks online, did a lot of work turning off their own base in the last 12 years in exchange for peeling off, idk, like five Republicans.

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

Look, blame me if it makes you feel better, but imo the democrats were trying to play with fire by trapping voters between Trump and their donors and betting that they wouldn’t pick Trump. Then, they went and did it a second time. All I’m saying then and now is that we’d be better off-- both in terms of being further from Nazis AND in terms of winning elections-- not playing with that fire and actually doing a meaningful campaign. It’s like watching your kid touch the stove twice in a row (while telling them not to, mind you) and getting mad at the stove for burning them.

Voters aren't a stove, man. Voters make choices. Voters chose to ignore fascism.

And hell, the idea that the Dems 'trapped' voters between Trump and their donors only really applies in 2024. In 2016 and 2020? The corporate candidate won the primary. Leftists believe there's some great groundswell of labor support ready to burst forth from the American population, because vague platitudes poll well. But the awful truth is that most Americans are not as radical as we are; most primary voting Americans are only even vaguely aware of the issues, much less deeper systemic problems that need to be addressed.

Harris was some of those, yes, but I think you’re being pretty generous in a few places here.

Not at all. I can quote and link her for the 2024 campaign on all of those issues. For that matter, I remember a time not that long ago when Dems didn't support several of those positions. But the drumbeat of "Not good enough" and exaggeration of how far right Harris and the Dems were took root as a narrative.

I’m not happy Trump won, and that’s why I think it’s important to hold Democrats accountable for their fuckups that got us here, rather than letting them blame the voters. I think that Not Trump isn’t a compelling message- regardless of whether you or I think it SHOULD be- and that the democrats, much more than a few dorks online, did a lot of work turning off their own base in the last 12 years in exchange for peeling off, idk, like five Republicans.

If you're looking for blame per-capita, obviously Harris and her campaign are most at fault. But man, at the end of the day, I don't know if I said it here or in another conversation, the fate of the nation should not rest on whether or not our party produces a 'good enough' aristocrat to lead us poor sniveling masses. We have elections. And the American people chose, or chose to be indifferent to, fascism.

You want to measure up which individuals deserve the guillotine? Look at the Dem party, sure. But you want to measure up who has to change if this country is to have a sustainable democracy?

It's the voters. It's us.

Upvoted for reasonable conversation btw

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[–] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 2 points 2 years ago*

Thanks for the reasonable discussion as well. I dunno, I kinda agree, but I also think that it's not for nothing that there are Obama-Bernie-Trump voters. The through line there is change, people are desperate for LOTS of it, and the one time in the last 12 years the democrats kind of offered it (Biden), they won. This is the exact moment the Harris campaign was fucking cooked:

https://youtu.be/QVD17hg4O7o

That should have set off more alarms than the control room at Chornobyl. Talking down to your base for not supporting you enough is a really, really, really bad sign (and look) and someone should have hit the panic button. Instead, they played it like 2016 and made a bunch of celebrity appearances.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (11 children)

You're right, Pug, a billion dollars in direct spending was derailed by people pointing out the bad things they were seeing. It definitely wasn't the bad things that cost her the election, just the people acknowledging that the bad things existed and suggesting she do something different. I forgot, if you're in a car with someone who is about to drive or a cliff, the best thing you can do is remain quiet; you wouldn't want to distract the driver with your negativity. Once again, Pug, your brilliant insights have saved the day.

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (10 children)

So you don't think that negative campaigning against a candidate has an effect on the electorate?

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (9 children)

I think it's not fucking magic, Pug. There was far more negative campaigning coming from the hundreds of millions spent by the Trump campaign. There was even more money spent by Harris to negatively campaign against Trump, for all the good it did. But leftists complaining online threw the election? Everyone needs to shut up and smile, because if they criticize the Democrats too loudly they'll collapse? Is that where we're at?

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago* (8 children)

I think it’s not fucking magic, Pug. There was far more negative campaigning coming from the hundreds of millions spent by the Trump campaign.

So?

There are millions of votes other than mine; it doesn't mean that I'm not responsible for my vote, or my other actions.

But leftists complaining online threw the election?

No. But leftists playing negative PR games online contributed to the loss. I've said elsewhere, I don't think they were the tipping point.

But neither was Iowa, yet everyone who voted for Trump or abstained in Iowa is a fucking contributor to the fascist regime.

Not being the deciding factor does not absolve you of the implications of your choices.

Everyone needs to shut up and smile, because if they criticize the Democrats too loudly they’ll collapse? Is that where we’re at?

We were going into an election everyone knew was going to be close, against a literal fascist.

Maybe a little of the 'United Front' spirit would've been welcome, instead of playing the usual games of "Undermine the SHITLIBS" when there was a candidate promising fascism, with the necessary background to confirm his intentions as sincere, as the only other choice in the running. It's not even a question of "I oppose all aid to Israel", but "Harris is a genocide supporter!" The issue was not voicing policy concerns; it was attacking the less vile of the only two candidates who could win.

Tell me, if the election had been lost by a few dozen votes, instead of a touch under two million, would your response be different? Or would it still be "Beating the negative PR drum is Just My Opinion"?

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Fucking incredible how far you'll go to blame everyone but the people responsible for the loss. Oh, did Harris' shitty campaign cause widespread voter apathy? Don't blame the campaign for that, blame the people who talked about it too openly. Oh, you wanted a, "United Front," against Trump? Do you blame Harris for failing to unite the party behind her? You know, the fucking job of a leader? Nope, it's the lefts fault for not falling in line.

Like, I don't even know what to do with this anymore. You're watching the Democratic coalition collapsed under the party’s mismanagement, and you're blaming the coalition instead of party. Get a grip, Pug, FFS.

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Fucking incredible how far you’ll go to blame everyone but the people responsible for the loss. Oh, did Harris’ shitty campaign cause widespread voter apathy? Don’t blame the campaign for that,

I've said numerous times that Harris ran a shit campaign, and that she's to blame.

blame the people who talked about it too openly.

Oh, is that what you think I'm criticizing? People saying "Harris is running a poor campaign"?

Oh, you wanted a, “United Front,” against Trump? Do you blame Harris for failing to unite the party behind her? You know, the fucking job of a leader? Nope, it’s the lefts fault for not falling in line.

Literally and explicitly said, to you, in this conversation, that the left wasn't the lynchpin of any of this. But who needs facts when you have windmills to tilt against?

Like, I don’t even know what to do with this anymore. You’re watching the Democratic coalition collapsed under the party’s mismanagement, and you’re blaming the coalition instead of party. Get a grip, Pug, FFS.

You're watching 90 million people say they don't care if fascism wins, so long as those horrible LIBERAL ELITES lose; and then saying that's not the voters punishing the powerless for the sins of the powerful.

Is this more hypocrisy, or more cognitive dissonance?

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Literally and explicitly said, to you, in this conversation, that the left wasn't the lynchpin of any of this. But who needs facts when you have windmills to tilt against?

Last point I'm gonna make here, then I need to move on with my life. I'm not saying that if the left united behind Harris it would have turned the tide, I'm just responding to your demand for obedience from the left instead of leadership from the party. For the record, no, I highly doubt that, if all the people who cast protest votes instead voted for Harris, it would have changed the outcome.

For Harris to have won, she would have needed to win all the votes she lost to apathy. Most people who don't like a candidate don't stay home in protest or vote third party, they just convince themselves that one vote doesn't matter and decide to do laundry or cook dinner instead of standing in a poll line.

So I'm not gonna blame voters for being unmotivated, I'm gonna blame Harris for not motivating them. I'm not going to blame protest voters for withholding their vote, I'm gonna blame Harris for not addressing their protest. I'm not gonna blame critics of Harris for being too vocal, I'm going to blame Harris for giving us so much to criticize. Because only an idiot would think it's more productive to scold the 275 million Americans who didn't vote for Harris instead of demanding change from the handful of Democrats who run the party. Now that's tilting against windmills, Pug.

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago

So I’m not gonna blame voters for being unmotivated, I’m gonna blame Harris for not motivating them.

Sorry that you think that being apathetically welcoming towards literal fascism is excusable.

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[–] Seasm0ke@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Cant believe after all the messaging around this election that "Shut up, give me your vote, and get zero concessions" is still not attractive to people for some reason. I swear I heard it everywhere, from every blue maga shill and self aggrandizing liberal in the internet... but despite it saturating the narrative she still tanked. Strange how that works.

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Cant believe after all the messaging around this election that “Shut up, give me your vote, and get zero concessions” is still not attractive to people for some reason.

I'm sorry that you didn't get enough 'concessions' to justify trying for less genocide instead of more genocide. We who are on the list for the death camps thank you for your moral fucking purity.

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[–] Seasm0ke@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Man there's something there you should try to split test the genocide lite angle for their 2028 campaign. Anything to avoid moving left right?

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

Once Israel is done murdering all of Palestine with Trump's full support and the Palestinian genocide is no longer an issue that can be addressed, I'm sure you'll find some other excuse to avoid ever having to 'debase' yourself by voting against minorities in the US being rounded up and sent to camps. Nothing is ever pure enough, except letting disadvantaged groups be murdered by conservatives, apparently.

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