this post was submitted on 02 Jun 2024
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you don't actually think Trump will be materially worse on Gaza or similar issues, you're just filled with horror at the thought that big scary stupid orange man will tweet during the genocide. the average lib's brain was catastrophically shattered by 2016-2020 despite the only meaningful change compared to any other president being that Trump was acting like a buffoon during it. there's a lot of things that got worse during Trump, obviously, but they would have gotten equally worse under Clinton or anybody else.
when liberals do make complaints about how things got materially worse, it's almost invariably true that you can either a) point to how it was already bad until Obama and the trendline just kept going in the same direction, or b) point to how Biden then proceeded to make it worse anyway despite being a Democrat. so the only problem libs genuinely have with Trump, when you peel away the bullshit, was that Trump was an "unpresidential" Tweeter in Chief and they had to endure a bunch of shitty pepe memes being posted at them by dipshit chuds while trying to eat brunch; truly a fate worse than death.
"What if we killed a hundred thousand starving Palestinians like we are now, but the guy in charge was incompetent?" Oh god! Those dead Palestinians will feel much worse knowing that the way they killed was bombs being dropped on them incompetently rather than the result of a smart, systematic, scientific approach via the AI revolution delivered by Final Solutions Inc!
"What if we got rid of the right to an abortion, or let states across the country strike down rights for the LGBTQIA+ like we are now, but this time the guy in charge was tweeting about McDonalds during it?" What a nightmare!
"What if we explicitly reduced the US's ability to fight climate change by expanding the national fossil fuel industry and introducing tariffs on foreign green energy and electric vehicles like we are now, but Trump made our country look silly while doing it?" Please, anything but that!
"What if we built a wall on the southern border and deported more migrants than the previous president and made the lives of migrants absolute living hell with constant violations of human rights by border guards, while the media then pretends that the guards there are being ordered at gunpoint by communist Marxist Stalinist politicians to provide a million dollars to each migrant and let them fuck their wives because the best way to motivate Americans to vote is to make them scared that the Scary Group of Brown People are coming to steal their stuff? But, instead of Biden doing that, Trump was doing it, and he was being RACIST on SOCIAL MEDIA too!" What torture!
I'm gonna have to disagree with you a bit on this, if Clinton got to choose scotus justices instead of Trump, RvW would not have been overturned. That's real world consequences that affects people with wombs every day.
Democrats are equally bad to Republicans on many issues, the oppression of all people matters and we need better answers but it doesn't help to minimize or invalidate the oppression of people with wombs just to make a point around the oppression of other groups.
Is that why she picked an anti abortion running mate in 2016? Because she cares about women?
Clinton absolutely doesn't care about people with wombs, all she cares about is herself, power, money, and a place in the history books, and I can't see any way in which overturning RvW would be her desired legacy. Nothing about it makes any sense.
And just a gentle reminder that trans men can also be affected by this situation, so it's worth an effort to use trans inclusive language.
Where the fuck are all you liberals coming from?
Not a liberal, I'm not even sure you know what a liberal is.
Clinton would have no incentive and nothing to gain by overturning RvW, and people don't usually do things without an incentive.
Trump was highly incentivized because his entire political culture is about "winning" and "making the liberals cry", and overturning RvW did make his voterbase feel like they got a giant win and it did make liberals cry.
It would have been done anyway though. It was the court and Clinton wouldn't have been able to put any other judges in anyway. And yes you are a liberal (at best).
Aren't we all?
I don't see any reason why Clinton would be forced to pick the exact same scotus judges.
I'm not a liberal just because I might make you uncomfortable by challenging your established ways of thinking.
No you're a liberal because you are twisting yourself in a pretzel to advocate for Biden as "harm reduction"
Please fuck off.
I did not, will not ever advocate for Biden, because he is pro-genocide of Palestine. I don't think "harm reduction" or "lesser of two evils" is the solution.
Please do not make wildly tangential assumptions, it's not beneficial to dialogue. Treat the conversation you have with me as a conversation with me, and not an amalgamation of conversations you've had with other people.
You transgressed orthodoxy by suggesting that democrats could be appreciably different from republicans in any way and now will be treated as hostile. You're right, for what it is worth.
I'm not the person you're responding to, but I would never advocate for Biden, but I would also never ~~support~~ advocate for Trump. He's clearly the worse option for a myriad of other reasons.
I really do understand why a Palestinian American would not vote for Biden right now though and would never ask them to.
Nobody here is talking about supporting Trump we are talking about material conditions. You're way out of your depth here please read a book.
Is it possible for everyone to agree that criticizing specifically Democrats or Clinton or Biden is not a support of Trump, and criticizing specifically Trump is not a support of Biden.
Yeah and I think we're both falling on the other side of these material conditions. I believe the material conditions of putting Trump in power is worse than having Biden.
Whatbare thos material conditions then? Try explaining how supporting a genocide and the current crackdown on peaceful protests is the har reduction choice, I'll be over there not listening to you
I'll respond to the other person's comment with more examples when I find time since you said you won't listen to me anyway.
But I do have one question: do you think those two things would be better or worse under Trump? That answer is why it's harm reduction. Do you not remember the Muslim ban or bringing in federal agents to crack down on George Floyd protests?
Which material conditions are better under Biden?
Wages are down Cost of living, including,rent,groceries,housing, is up
One million+ Americans are dead from COVID, and millions more are suffering from continued Infections and long COVID.
Corporate Greed has made most routine restaurant visits worse. Most places are understaffed, leading to waiting longer for lower quality food at higher prices.
Many of my favorite chain stores are closing completely. Great economy ass!
Biden broke a major strike
Infrastructure like major bridges are falling apart because
is an idiot that isn't qualified for the job he was gifted for dropping out of 2020.
Immigrants continue to be deported in record numbers.
Kids are still in cages.
Every summer is the hottest in history, while this administration puts tariffs on cheap electric vehicles and solar panels that could help.
LGBT, especially T, material conditions are horrific in many places, and the Dems aren't doing anything to fix that.
Women in many states lost their right to choose, and the Dems aren't doing anything to materially fix that.
then have some solidarity with Palestinians and stop the ridiculous “harm reduction” rhetoric. nobody here is advocating for trump. those comments are removed and the users don’t last long on here since our admins are great and actually ban reactionaries.
if you want to actually delineate these “material conditions” you claim will be worse under trump compared to biden please share them
Okay, I will later when I have time. Probably days from now if not more than a week. One short thing I would argue is many things are generally worse with every passing year because (1) there has been a rightward trend in the Overton window, (2) the conservatives have been on a long, calculated campaign to gain political supremacy by diminishing voting rights, hacking away at federal power, and increasing the role of capital in political decision-making, primarily through the capture of the Judiciary (and its ideology).
Biden sucks and is pathetic in his response to RvW being overturned, for example. But it doesn't matter if you had Chomsky himself as president, nothing could have been done to change that decision.
I just don't think the solution is to then shift the Overton window even more right than where it is by voting for Trump, potentially making a lot of these issues (particularly in regards to voting rights), harder to shift left.
a president who opposed the rightward shift would have pushed court stacking and added justices until RvW was safe. or pushed a bill codifying abortion rights. dems had a voting majority in both houses and any dem who didnt vote for it would be giving up their reelection chance. ofc the rotating villain would vote against it and just take a high paying private sector job when their term ends.
the role of dems is to slow or stop leftward momentum by doing nothing so that the republicans can take over and move the country rightward. the overton window means nothing when regular citizens have no say in politics and can only vote for the mean fascist or the nice fascist. the overton window is meaningful if it is far left enough to push ppl into revolutionary action.
and, once again, stop strawmanning, nobody here is advocating for voting for trump. also, trump in office does not push the overton window right. it empowers the most rabid americans and would increase violence against the left, but that is going to happen under biden anyways with the right leaning state and municipal governments
I agree and think Democrats are tepid, pathetic excuses for a left wing that engage in continued imperialism and corporate control. I completely agree that they are letting us slip further into fascism and their responses are shit. I'm just saying that to make it happen quicker by (1) voting for Trump or (2) not voting for Biden seems misguided, generally. As much as I wish someone else would be on the ticket.
My intent is not to straw-man. I assumed folks here were advocating voting for Trump, because to me that seems like the only other option on a ticket that only gives you a binary choice. I'm sorry if that's not the case and I'm missing something.
And in that case, my question is then: what are people here advocating for? Not voting? Voting for a lefty as a write-in? Starting armed insurrection? Somewhere in between?
That's just false. Two justices were appointed by Trump, one of which replaced RBG and she died. The other would arguably still be Kennedy because he wouldn't have retired under Clinton, and he was probably less reactionary than Kavanaugh (time will tell). Also, Trump appointed a massive amount of lower court judges and that greatly affects what cases even make it up to the Supreme Court. A 5-4 majority by conservatives is wildly different than a 6-3 majority with massive lower court support.
I don't know how you can say "Clinton wouldn't have been able to put any other judges in anyway" when we know that she would have replaced RBG.
The difference between liberals and the left on this issue is that leftists see this system as fundamentally unjust and desire to tear it down. I don't want to play electoral games with the Supreme Court, where the whims of when certain people die and which lib is in power at the right time to replace them puts our basic rights at risk forever. That's bullshit!
I don't want to put "better judges" on the court. The real problem is the court itself, and the Constitution that created it. We need to abolish this undemocratic court.
Liberals will NEVER allow this. Enjoy dealing with your right to your own body being tossed around like a football for the rest of your life. If all you do is vote that's what you're getting. Or you can read some theory, understand the left, and help us build a revolution that tears this rotten government apart once and for all.
Based Booty Judge
We don’t know who HRC would have chosen.
Anyway, Biden was warned of the impending decision months in advance. He didn’t do anything. I guess he and Pelosi did send texts and emails begging for money.
I guess we'll see if Biden gets another term and picks some more right wing hacks.
I have no faith that democrats would have done the right thing.
Trump is currently the frontrunner by a small margin, so it's more likely that Trump will win, and we'll see if it's just business as usual or if project 2025 does make anything worse.
C'mon dude, I disagree with the original poster but this is hysteria. Trump's incompetence will not work in favor of anyone, it didn't during all four years of his presidency, because the GOP party apparatus already has a bunch of insane mercenary freaks for him to hire to better materialize their decades long desires.
Trump would absolutely push to nationalize abortion bans and bans on curricula that educates people on LGBTQ kids, Biden is at the least not getting in the way of blue state governors who codify protections against these moves. You can say "well who cares how much faster this fascism happens under Trump when Biden isn't going to reverse the trajectory" and the fact is that still matters to millions of people, they get more years of their life to enjoy the diminishing rights they have or figure out ways to adapt or leave the country.
Democrats always build on the shitty things Republicans introduce, but every new Republican president means a bunch of new shitty things to hand off to democrats to execute. Obama continued Bush policies, but Biden continued Bush and Trump policies. An idea skyrocketing to popularity among Republicans is literally to invade Mexico to fight the cartels, I don't want to give any Dem Trump successor that initiative to prolong.
Trump incompetence will not help the Palestinian people or anyone else, I am not saying people should vote for Biden, but Trump is absolutely worse unless we use vague enough rhetoric to conflate things.
idk man I felt this way but watching libs entirely tune out from the ongoing atrocities as soon as Biden was elected has changed my mind. There would be more of an uproar if it were Trump doing this exact same shit.
Also you seem to be doing a lot of contrarianism and trying to start arguments here lately on your brand new account that seems to be defending Democrats so yeah
What did the liberal uproar against Trump actually accomplish?
Nothing. It only resulted in Trump doubling down and doing shit like the programs to rehome separated toddlers into evangelical families.
If Trump is elected you will get to see the liberal uproar against him that you find more heartening than the liberal apologism for Biden, but what the libs will be in uproar about by then could be far bigger civilian death tolls and far more direct military aid to Israel.
Not to mention, the damage is already done by the lib defenders of Biden, if Trump took over and did more heinous stuff to Palestine, and libs suddenly found a bleeding heart, they'd be dismissed in the national spotlight for how they were complacent when Biden was in office. And we will be able to seethe at them then for what they caused years ago, but that would be all we can do. The power of their future uproar has already been ceded today.
Jared Kushner is already in talks with people in Israel about building resorts across Gazan beaches, and he will be the guy to inform Trump's middle east policy. Lastly, we only get to keep Gaza in the spotlight now because dementia addled Biden is completely aloof and incapable of remaining in the spotlight for long, meaning he doesn't hijack the news cycle with some new bullshit the whole media turns their attention to instead the way Trump did every day.
And if Trump were president now you can bet there would be even more rapey Hitler youth frat bros attacking the encampments, than there are now when the protestors are protesting Biden. There would be way more smears of the encampment in populist non-legacy media like Newsmax/InfoWars that currently don't give a shit about them (they would not be more antisemitic than they are pro-Trump), and libs would keep condemning the protestors for hurting optics either way. There is nothing to gain from Biden in office, there is even more to lose from Trump in office.
And I am not doing contrarianism, you can look at my post history, I may be more lib than you but rest assured that that is purely organic and not insidious. I am just trying to evaluate material outcomes and trying to game out what results in minimal harm, I just don't think Biden sucking ass justifies reflexively trying to fumble for dogshit arguments about why things might incidentally work out better under Trump.
I'm not fuckin voting for Biden take your worthless walls of text elsewhere.
It doesn't matter if you think Trump will be worse. I am not voting for the guy that let RvW fall and is supporting genocide and continuing or ratcheting up all Trump's policies while lulling liberals into complacency and even more complicity.
Fuck outta here.
But have you considered how bad it would be if Trump (hypothetically) pursued Biden's agenda even more aggressively than Joe Biden?
I am not asking you to vote, I am asking you to stop grandstanding and doing motivated reasoning for how Trump would be better.
Why are you trying to start an argument about which horrible option is better? Biden was worse because he’s competent. Both are sociopaths. Both are suffering from dementia. Both oversaw the erosion of rights. Both oversaw apartheid and genocide. Trump’s narcissism works against him, though, because he gets distracted and doesn’t get as much done. Biden is good at what he does, and what he’s doing is hastening the end of human life. Accelerationists for Biden!!!
Crucially what you are doing isn't motivated reasoning though, genocide supporter
Why would you not ask him to vote if you truly believe that there is a better choice?
A centrist too, lmao
Never asked anybody to vote, just wanted people do not perpetuate the delusion thay Trump's incompetence may be incidentally beneficial for the things Biden fucked up.
Biden has blown past Trump's deportation numbers, given corrupt racist police departments all over the country record-breaking funding, and striped one of the largest unions in the country of its right to strike, something Republicans haven't managed to do since the Traffic Controller firings in the 80s, and that's all before the genocide he's carried out
Seriously shut the fuck up already with this fantasy version of Biden you dipshit libs have in your heads, nobody is buying it
lmao yeah Biden's competence is somehow better than Trump's incompetence, the definition of magical thinking, this right here really encapsulates the braindead zombie-like nature of modern liberalism; self-contradictory, nonsensical and totally at odds with the facts we observe
All that matters is we triangulate ourselves into being on the side of the status quo no matter how much blood it sheds