I (23M) had an abusive upbringing. In early childhood, my father beat me and told me I was weak when I cried out in pain and begged for mercy. Since then, I learned that I was unlovable because I expressed vulnerability and neediness instead of silently enduring the pain, and that others would expect me to be strong and take things "like a man."

As I grew up, I got better and better at hiding my pain. But because I so rarely experienced any kind of affection or positive attention, I never learned to hide pleasure.

I compared myself a lot to men in pornography. It seemed like nothing fazed them, even as women did things to them that could make me faint. These men had incredible endurance and could stay in control of themselves as they made manly grunts. I was a failure in comparison.

I do not make manly grunts. I sound like Mickey goddamn Mouse. I unlock 3 new octaves of vocal range and tremble and blush and hyperventilate like crazy. I'm so embarrassed about it. I see videos of men receiving oral and think "Holy shit, HOW is that guy still standing? He's not even shaking!?" And then I think there's no way in hell that women would put up with my effeminate whines if strong guys who can withstand a woman's attention with little more than a few grunts are everywhere.

I came up with all these sexist lies about women to reassure myself that there was no risk of being touched by them and I was in control. "Porn is just fiction and the actresses lie when they express pleasure or interest; in reality, women don't initiate or reciprocate touch in real life because they're sexually passive and men are the pursuers. Women don't want to touch men because they are wired to receive pleasure, not give it. Also, women have to constantly fear being stalked and harassed by men, so I am doing the right thing by staying as far away from them as possible. Besides, I'm too much of a sensitive crybaby to be attractive to women anyway. So I'm safe. Sure, I live in a touch-starved hellscape, but I'll never have to worry about a woman touching and exploring my body and having naughty thoughts about me, let alone acting on them."

But it's about time I drop the bullshit and be honest.

I'm terrified of being touched by women I'm attracted to because I fear that they would ruthlessly mock me when I inevitably lose my composure and melt into a flustered, needy, giggly, grateful puddle. After all, that's what happened the last time I was openly emotive, way back in childhood when I cried out for mercy. None of my generalizations about women are true, and my avoidance of women doesn't actually make the world better. I am not helping anyone or acting rationally by doing this; I am just avoiding the possibility of being seen when I'm an emotional mess.

I was hoping that no woman would ever sexually desire me because then I would never have to worry about being seen. There were a couple of incidents in school where someone groped me and ran off before I could see who they were, and I automatically assumed at the time that the perpetrator was a guy, because the possibility of them being a girl was far more dangerous to my psyche.

I have these pervasive fantasies that a woman would find my flustered collapse incredibly cute and sexy. Rather than chastising me, she would be really sweet and flirtatious and enjoy sensually melting me at my own pace so as not to overwhelm me. My fear tries to convince me that this outcome isn't possible. But every day, I gain just a little bit more hope that it actually is, and the fear and shame lose just a little bit more power.

I know that Lemmy isn't a substitute for professional help, which is why I have also been going to therapy, but I think it would help a lot if others could tell me what a partner's positive experience of my responses might look like or share how they dealt with similar insecurities and communicated about them with their partner.

What do you think?

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I fear that they would ruthlessly mock me when I inevitably lose my composure and melt into a flustered, needy, giggly, grateful puddle.

In my experience, people would much rather have fun with someone that actually reacts to their touch than with some boring stoic nonsense.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 hours ago*

    porn isnt real, they selectively choose the men with large penises, 6pack abs, 6' tall, usually WHITE and sometimes attractive. unforunately alot of people of both sexes refer to porn though.

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  • [–] 5 points 14 hours ago

    I compared myself a lot to men in pornography.

    You are 23 and you have never learned that porn is a lie?

    Ok, so I tell you:

    Porn is a lie. Porn is fake. All porn is lying on many, many, many levels.

    Real humans are different. They look differently, they act differently, they feel differently, they sound differently, they have whole other needs and desires, and this list could go on for several pages...

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  • [–] 20 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (7 children)

    Edit: I'm going to leave this comment here because it's funny, but after a little exchange I have given him the benefit of the doubt.

    What do I really think?

    You're fishing for good wank material for some sub/sissy/humiliation kink and you find the whole range of responses from this section more intoxicating due to authenticity of the replies, potential for heated or derisive exchanges, and the thrill of being sneaky about it. As compared to just posting in some nsfw fanfic/roleplay, obviously.

    In a few weeks you'll probably ask a related question in a different section.

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  • [–] 7 points 18 hours ago (1 child)

    This. It’s way too well formatted and clearly written with an agenda

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  • [–] 2 points 13 hours ago

    agenda

    Theory: OP isn't a native english speaker and is going through a translator llm. If he's not real then we're doing a good job providing high signal/noise responses to train a medically/psychologically focused llm in another language.

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  • [–] [S] -1 points 18 hours ago (3 children)

    I'll admit that I was a bit heavy on the self-flagellation, but I did so because I wanted to convey the current feelings of self-loathing that I explicitly want to overcome. I think being ashamed of this aspect of myself is a definitive weakness that needs to be worked on, but I don't really know many good places to talk about it.

    Personally, humiliation and femdom content triggers me because I want safety and repair, not re-inflammation of the same wound. I explicitly said that I fantasize about acceptance, not further degradation.

    My intentions really are straightforward here: I want intimacy but get blocked by my insecurities around my responses to touch. The only way to make intimacy possible is for me to unlearn that shame, so that's what I am trying to work on.

    Maybe the post looks suspect because the answer is obvious to everyone else and it only isn't to me because it took years for me to learn basic things like "some people care about my feelings" and "violence isn't a normal response to mildly disagreements with others." So because of our different backgrounds, it looks like I'm asking something so obvious that I must have an ulterior motive, when the answer is much more mundane -- I haven't learned that not everyone is as backwards and abusive as my parents were, and that's the personal shortcoming I'm trying to work on.

    Perhaps the fact that my insecurities look contemptible or suspicious to others is a sign that I shouldn't let them stop me anymore and I should just focus on learning to communicate and build trust with a partner, then go from there.

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  • [–] 7 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (2 children)

    Alright, I'll bite.

    My young friend, I'll tell you this: it's perfectly fine to be exactly as you are. As long as you're not hurting anyone with your behavior, you are free to express yourself in any way you like. Be who you want to be and how you want that to look like and you'll gain the respect of others and yourself for living with authenticity.

    The ideas and labels and history we have about ourselves, whether we are worthy of love or not, if we're good enough or not, are largely illusionary anyway. They can be very persistent but in the end they are as malleable and ephemeral as any concept. Smoke and mirrors of the mind. You can let these conceptions of yourself lead you through a maze of confusion, twisting this way and that, your whole life, or you can abandon them, climb over the walls of this self constructed maze and be free now.

    I guarantee that no matter what you're into, how you present yourself, there is somebody out there that is into it. Don't worry about what some broad spectrum of people might or might not like about you. Instead, judge each situation as it arises and attend to the specifics of that interaction.

    When you are younger, you have little personal data collected about life to go off of. As a result, a lot of theories about people and the world are based on idealism, stereotypes and cultural biases and generalisms rather than first hand experience. The reality is that things are not these caricatures that are formed by our grasping minds but way more varied and nuanced.

    Sure, there are superficial people in the world, a lot of them, in fact, depending on how their day is going, and you may not be their cup of tea. But over all you'll find that people care way less about you (both in a positive and negative sense) and way more about how you make them feel. All the facts about you are very insubstantial compared to the impact you have on their esteem in your relationships with others.

    One of the best developments in my life came when I stopped trying so hard to be a certain person or present myself in a certain way. It seems like the way to success is to be a certain way. I was afraid if I wasn't manly or tough enough that I wouldn't gain others' respect or it would open me up to being attacked. Like you, I had some real life experiences that reinforced this perception. I have lived through certain situations where weakness absolutely would invite the wrong attention from very monstrous people. It very much was a matter of personal safety to be intimidating and to correct other people's opinions on that if they didn't agree. And later that bled into relationships with others. Our entire world view is shaped by key moments in our upbringing. So I thought I had to be a certain way and spent a large chunk of life not feeling I could be any other way. With guys, as well as being macho, or at least without weakness, when dealing with women, too. It was a waste of a life.

    But the world is not your abusive upbringing, or a prison, or a reality island dating show, or any other artificial environment. It is vast and varied and filled with people who do not make up a monolith, and you can't please or impress them all. Or even the majority. It's much easier to just be you. Accept others as you would like for yourself and don't cast your pearls before swine. It's important to see the world as it is rather than assuming it is because for survivors of abuse their perceptions are often biased very heavily towards negativity. So stay in therapy.

    And one last note about women. While it certainly helps to be... flexible with how you come across with image, and interpersonal vibes, and handling relationships, on the whole most women care way more about you being someone they feel safe with, someone they trust but aren't bored by, than anything else. There are some vague universalities about attraction, but rarely are they absolute or limited to just one thing. For every woman who likes one type of guy, there is another woman that likes something entirely different. And, on the whole, women are way more accepting of variety and their criteria for attraction is different than men's. A lady might be attracted to the manly man neighbor who chats her up while working on his motorcycle and then later her eye turns towards the the gentle warm guy serving her coffee who always has a smile and joke for her.

    What ever role you want to play, there is a woman who will go on that journey with you provided you treat her the way she wants to be treated.

    In short: You are exactly who you need to be right now. You can always improve how you navigate life but the quality of who you are is exactly right, right now. So just be at ease with that fact. You are worthy, good hearted, and a lovable person. Don't ever forget that.

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  • [–] [S] -1 points 16 hours ago (1 child)

    Thank you.

    I guess I've just been far too susceptible to the idea that if the people around me make faces or get short with me, it confirms that I am as worthless as my parents made me feel. So I've always been to be afraid to be soft or a little effeminate because it would hurt my fragile self-esteem when some people would punish those traits so harshly in men.

    But just because the people who will love me aren't right in front of me doesn't mean that I'm unlovable. It just means that I need to keep looking.

    I met someone who gushed over how adorable I was once. I was just too afraid to trust her because I never realized that she was seeing right through my paper-thin veneer of masculinity because I just looked so gentle and clumsy to her. I thought at the time that it was just a fluke and I found one of the 0.001% of people who would accept me, but now, I don't think that it was.

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  • [–] 2 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago)

    Correct.

    To get closer to the gist of your original comment...

    Any hang ups you have about being intimate with another person will largely vanish once you get a little practice.

    Sex and intimacy is a skill, not just in the physical sense but in the vibe building sense. Don't worry, you're going to fuck it up a bunch before it starts to come together.

    If you're afraid you're going to slip up and do something that will turn him or her off... you will, lol. But in the end it'll be fine.

    There is tremendous power in being able to choose your role. Masculine, feminine, non denominational, ha ha. Rough and tough, suave and sensual? Master, sub, equals? You want to be the daddy? Or you want to be mommied? You want to cry a little in their arms? You want to take them to heights of pleasure never felt before? You want to have a spiritual moment with them? These are all just variations, themes, props, you can pick up and play with. You don't have to be any one thing.

    And, if you find that you actually do trend towards the effeminate, there are plenty of women who find that cute, too.

    It doesn't matter. At the end of a life you want to be able to say you got to experience it all. Leave nothing on the table.

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  • [–] 8 points 16 hours ago

    I (23M) had an abusive upbringing. [...]

    Go to therapy. At 23 you have time to work through it, but assuming you're being honest in your posts you're nowhere near being on a path to anything that sounds like personal fulfillment. Focus on yourself and stop worrying about what women may think.

    which is why I have also been going to therapy

    You're not stuck with that one for life.

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  • [–] 3 points 13 hours ago (3 children)

    Just to throw devil advocate out there. Have tried being gay? Lots of men like high pitch moaning

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (2 children)

    I'm straight.

    Entertaining the idea that I needed to somehow force myself to be bi to be loved just reinforced the idea that my real self is unlovable and that women's desires are monolithic, so I stopped doing it in favor of trying to deconstruct my sexist beliefs -- namely, that men's sexual desires are innately predatory and women are passive victims of men who have no agency or desires. Dismantling this view is what made me realize that I am vulnerable to advances by women and the possibility of intimacy with them terrifies me.

    Maybe what I need to do is to recognize that this agency means that women are individuals with their own preferences, and for some women, many of their preferences will overlap with my own traits. Treating women as a monolith was a symptom of my failure to engage with them as individuals because I had conceptualized them all as victims.

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  • [–] 2 points 12 hours ago (1 child)

    Spring boarding off this cause I lost my therapist and insurance a month ago. I do the same shit with men, as a gay man. I'm pretty shy and I find I difficult to strike up convos with strangers, honestly keeping up a convo with most people is hard sometimes. Men can be hot and crazy and cute. Most just want sex which is a contemporary gay man's dream but I want a relationship and deeper connection. I had a long term relationship but we ended it because we sexually weren't compatible. I see men and I scare myself off because if I come on too strong he'll think I'm strange. But then I see other guys prey upon these guys and they are into it. I need a good wingman to boost my confidence in situations like this. I won't know until I try and if I get rejected then I have lost nothing and gained knowledge, honed social skills, and gave it my all. I always say this and then it's harder to do then to say it.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 12 hours ago

    I won’t know until I try and if I get rejected then I have lost nothing and gained knowledge, honed social skills, and gave it my all.

    I like this mindset. For me, rejection felt like death, but I didn't know at the time that this was because of trauma. I've been locked out of pursuing intimacy in part because my brain would interpret rejection to mean something it doesn't (Dad was right VS we're not compatible). But I didn't lose anything externally; the loss was in my head, and I can work on my mindset to diminish the amount of shame I feel.

    I'm hoping I am reaching a stage of recovery where I can lose a lot less sanity from rejection and start talking to more people in real life. In fact, it kind of already happened. This is my lowest upvote ratio on a post and I haven't collapsed in shame and defeat, just staying curious and trying to learn.

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  • [–] 5 points 16 hours ago (7 children)

    This reads like AI slop and OP’s history is full of wall-of-text comments that read the exact same way.

    Sus.

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  • [–] 2 points 12 hours ago (3 children)

    Also it's one of those accounts that only post in AskLemmy. It's someone using an LLM but I don't know why. Having fun? Training? What is the point of wasting our time?

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 11 hours ago (2 children)

    No, honestly? If you can't tell I'm a human by now, we are genuinely f u c k e d as a species. I have never had anyone accuse me of being AI like this before and it's so fucking grim that people can't tell I'm a real person. At least we don't have any age verification bullshit going on here, but I don't know what you expect me to say or do at this point to prove I'm a real guy. You honestly just convinced me that the Internet truly is dead at this point. Tear it all down. See you in the real world.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 hours ago (1 child)

    What is the point of asking a hundred questions in the same community?

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 11 hours ago*

    I have Complex PTSD.

    I was raised in a hellhole with no references for how human connection is supposed to work, who can and cannot be trusted, how sex works, how relationships work... Usually your parents are supposed to teach you these things, but mine taught me that nobody can be trusted and I deserved to be tortured. So, I've spent the last 10 years slowly, painstakingly piecing together what love and connection looks like from almost nothing, all for the chance of a loving relationship.

    I've been going to therapy, but often asking questions about love and connection here helps to get me unstuck from a mental rut and grounds me in the real world just a bit more. I ask a lot of questions simply because there's a lot to learn, and it's often things that are obvious to other people (like voicing your needs in a relationship). Some answers I've gotten have helped me a lot and genuinely improved my ability to trust others. I don't have any trusted individuals I can talk to in real life besides my therapist, and I only get a couple hours a month with her.

    If you have any better suggestions on where to ask these kinds of questions, I'm open to hearing them. But from what I've seen, there aren't a lot of Q&A style communities here on Lemmy that are very active. Most Lemmy communities have barely any activity, so if I posted anything there, nobody will see it. And I don't want to give Reddit traffic.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (2 children)

    Man, I hate that you can't tell who's real and who's AI nowadays.

    I have a bad habit of turning everything into a grand narrative with lots of background details when it doesn't really have to be, and I've been pretty verbose long before this stupid LLM slop wave. I've always written like that because I thought it would help people understand my situation, but now I'm starting to think it doesn't actually help that much. Too many blanks for people's minds to fill in, to the point where it's like they're talking to a totally different person.

    Just a symptom of loneliness I think. "Hi, before you answer my question, please read my biography so you know as much about my life as a close friend would."

    Maybe keeping things simple and providing less context is better.

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  • [–] 6 points 18 hours ago

    Pay for the therapy.

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  • [–] 4 points 18 hours ago (3 children)

    I think by the time you get to the point of sleeping with a woman, all that bullshit matters far less to her than you imagine. Especially if you are enthusiastic about taking care of her needs.

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  • [–] [S] -1 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (2 children)

    So basically, the porn stuff is all bullshit and what really matters is building trust, being attentive, and showing your partner that you're enthusiastic for them? So then if you sound like kind of a goofball sometimes, it's just kind of cute and funny rather than a deal-breaker?

    Obviously women aren't a monolith, but I'm imagining it might be something like that.

    This narrow focus on not sounding silly is distracting me from those aspects. Maybe you're right that this is just one small part of our connection and the mental and emotional bandwidth it's taking up in my head is far more damaging to the relationship than my reactions themselves.

    I'm also kind of assuming that even if not every response I have isn't the hottest thing in the world to my partner, she would be willing to throw away everything else and leave just because of that.

    I guess when you think about the insecurity like that, it makes a lot less sense. All the time I could be spending being present with my partner and thinking about how to make her happy instead goes into obsessing over a performance that I don't even know she wants. Then I can't meet her needs because I can only think about myself. Maybe I can make a playful joke or two about being really sensitive or making silly sounds, but having constant anxiety over it is counterproductive.

    Maybe connections are more than just one thing and more than just "being a man," whatever the hell that means at this point.

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  • [–] 2 points 17 hours ago (1 child)

    That porn is bullshit goes without saying. You're looking at men selected for performance and endurance and bodily control most of us don't have, performing in an environment that is not sexy.

    And there are different kinds of masculinity most of which have nothing to do with sexual performance. Also I would suggest lots of women love a vocally expressive partner while most guys are pretty quiet, based on conversations I've had. So what you think is a negative might be a positive in some cases. Shrug

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 17 hours ago

    Yeah, the "most guys are pretty quiet" thing is what has been tripping me up. That led me to a chain of reasoning like:

    Most guys aren't vocal during sex → Women don't expect guys to be vocal during sex → Women would get turned off by guys who are vocal during sex.

    And of course, all of this hinges on treating men and women as monoliths with deterministic behavior rather than individuals with individual tastes, preferences, and openness to new experiences.

    I think I'll probably encounter a lot of women who still like more conventionally manly men. But where I've gone wrong is believing that my worth is contingent upon how popular my physical and emotional traits are, and that a woman rejecting me confirms that Dad was right. That way of thinking is my weakness, and it prevents me from thinking about positive things that will help me better connect with others because I am too busy hating myself over something that isn't even a real flaw. It's like saying that I'm worse than everyone else because my favorite color is yellow when red, green, and blue are more popular. Just because I like a less popular color doesn't mean I'm incompatible with people who like the other colors.

    So I think the solution is to embrace liking the color yellow and stop worrying about the other colors. It's to work on cultivating the sweet, silly, caring masculinity I want to embody and trust that there will be others who like it. Maybe I'll end up with a woman who wants to see me get dramatically flustered and melty during sex because it's telegraphed by the rest of my personality.

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  • [–] 4 points 18 hours ago
    [+] 1 point 19 hours ago