A man can not remake himself without suffering for he is both the marble and the sculptor.
The problem with this viewpoint is that in a class society of oppressors and oppressed, oppression becomes virtuous. "Without us no one would work." In our society, the people who promote this philosophy are not usually the sufferers, and when the sufferers do promote it it is an internalization of the ideology of the oppressors.
In fact, this is a very limited view, that hides the actual process. What is really happening, is that you have an individual subject. That subject has to be understood as a thinking, feeling, experiencing being. They have some experience of the objective world, they contemplate that experience, that contemplation initiates changes in the subject, and then the individual acts based on the understanding of the experience. That activity changes something in objective reality; which the subject experiences, contemplates, understands, and acts upon.
Our society, including this meme, neglects to define this thinking/sensing/experiencing subject, and what is objectively recognized is socially determined, mostly by whoever is in charge, who uses direct and indirect domination to enforce and influence the way that the oppressed, the sufferers, define and understand their direct experience of suffering.
While there is some truth buried in the meme, for example if I experience suffering I may contemplate it and change something about my practical activity in order to end the suffering; suffering does not equal positive development in the subject. Most often, it results in a kind of trauma if the individual is not able to change their circumstances. Something as simple as tooth-pain can completely derail ones ability to think straight and make rational decisions. Its suffering, yes, but if you can't afford or access appropriate dental care, that doesn't mean you like become a better person. "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" can be a kind of cope, or survivors bias. Sometimes what doesn't kill you permanently maims you. If you adapt, then yeah maybe. But even in adaptation, disabled people face all kinds of obstacles to access, safety, dignity and prosperity. If the meme was universally true, then disabled people would be undeniably titanic superhumans; and frankly, some of them are. But you wouldn't know it, because actually society shoves these people down, leaves them at a disadvantage that always has to be fought against.
Even if someone is theoretically "stronger" if they encounter more social challenges then the weaker and more privileged will still get ahead, which is exactly how things work. The most successful people in society cause most of the suffering, and actually suffer the least. So the meme has some truth in it but only in the most narrow and idealistic way. In reality, most suffering leads to internalization of the causes rather than a fighting spirit to overcome it, which is exactly why the oppressors oppress. If suffering really made people stronger, then it wouldn't suit our rulers to make the masses suffer.
Don't fall for the cult of the individual. Strength comes from unity.
Ugh. Bootstrap, feel good drivel.
I see Greek statues and can usually tell the angle where this is going. You'd think people obsessed with dominance would eventually seek stronger philosophies but I think this one persists for just being Reaganomics with the serial number filed off
No, nothing worthwhile comes for free, unless you're very talented. From dieting to finishing a degree, it requires sacrificing something.
The scent of indoctrination is all over you, bud. Your reply even starts with another over used bootstrap adage.
Can you give me examples of things that take place for free that are valuable besides, idk, life itself or random circumstance? A degree requires sacrificing videogames, faithfulness requires sacrificing sexual hedonism, parenthood requires all sorts of sacrifices... At this point, I think you just dislike the fact that you're gonna have to put effort in life (silly), and dislike being reminded of it (more understandable), this reaction to such a harness, "basic truth of the universe" phrase is bizarre.
There's a $200 per year licensing fee and some infrastructure cost (divided up over 20-30 years or something) but Nestle takes over a million gallons of water out of the great lakes every day.
Insurance companies get money from denying claims they should approve.
When companies exploit legal loopholes that harm people or the environment, and then go to court and have to pay a fine that is usually like 1/10 or less, as a percentage, than the profits they made by breaking the law/hurting people/polluting then that's basically free money.
In 2008 the US Government paid hundreds of billions in bailouts to investors and insurance companies after they intentionally crashed the economy. The american people generally were outraged, and the bailout money went to corporate bonuses, so in that case, people made money (value) from like losing money, which is billions of dollars less than free.
I could keep going
Do you really think that phrase is meant to be understood that way or what I asked you, or is it more like "progress takes effort and effort is not easy". It's like you're here to yap for the sake of yapping. Even if you misunderstood in earnest what that handful of words meant, you could've just said so, no need to double down talking about Nestle, lol. Nobody should "umh achtually" about an inoffensive and matter of fact couple of words, but to write paragraphs on it is strange and embarrassing.
I mean you're the one with yappy in their username, so I'll take "yap for the sake of yapping" as a sign of you recognizing a kindred spirit, and not the semi confrontational manner in which I originally took it. Because tbh, yes I do like to contribute to discussions for the sake of those discussions.
You asked for examples, I provided some. Are the "inoffensive and matter of fact couple of words" referring to the meme? Why should I be embarrassed about writing paragraphs? I write a lot, not just in posts but for my own reference, an occasional article, etc., if its a topic I feel strongly about. So why are you trying to shame me? Can't you just engage with me in good faith? As for strange, well, I'll own up to that, proudly.
As far as the meme is concerned, I can see a good interpretation of its meaning, in a very narrow sense. But its not at all a universal, and I take issue with the way its framed. I can think of many instances where the meme is just flat out wrong. I responded to the meme with "strange and embarrassing" paragraphs. If you can tolerate them, I'd love to hear your perspective.
But I provided examples. Can you respond to them, or are you only responding to comments in bad faith? Maybe you do so because responding in bad faith is worthless, and you refuse to generate value for free. That would be consistent with what you've discussed here.
You provided examples for something, I don't know what, which belong in a different conversation with a different topic, completely unrelated to "you're the marble yadda yadda" which, for anyone that isn't entirely deranged, is a matter-of-fact statement regarding how everything worthwhile usually takes effort (unless you're extremely talented/lucky) and effort is not as comfortable as not putting it in. Idk what Nestlé has to do with anything. Just let it go already, unless even continuing a discussion employing nonsensical arguments/examples is amusing to you, I guess.
Can you give me examples of things that take place for free that are valuable besides, idk, life itself or random circumstance?
In was specifically providing examples where there are processes in our society that produce value for free, or where an incredible amount of value is created for no cost or extremely low cost. In that case the Nestle example is relevant, because they extract natural resources for almost no cost, and convert it into a commodity to be resold for high profits. The natural resource is, for all intents and purposes, free. The proceeds of the value created are then transferred to private hands, but value is created.
Why are you so insulting? If you don't want to continue the discussion, just don't respond. Otherwise, let's have a discussion about the topic, which is the point of a public forum like this one.
Wow. You really can't see the influence capitalism has on you, can you? It's OK. The system can't work without devotees such as yourself that need said system to define worth because you lack the ability, and dare I say effort, to seek it out yourself.
Capitalism? You're a bit of a moron, lol, I'm talking about achieving anything, from getting in shape to inner peace to raising a kid, not "being on that grind" 😐. Fuck capital, I don't even agree with usury! At least your heart seems to be in a good place so I'll just leave you alone now, peace.
You calling me a moron is the funniest shit I've read in a while.
Well, I'm glad you took it well.
Nothing worthwhile comes for free.
The point is that it means everything and nothing, as meaningful as saying "life is hard" just dressed up in pretty words. It could fit great in a poem, it could be fit in into an actual philosophical work, but with context, without continuing it to allow it to be as vague and broad as possible. This is just how people who don't read philosophy think it works.
Idk man, it's accurate enough and slightly motivational (even if it's overly simplistic) so overall I approve of it, but I understand your position.
Idk man, it's accurate enough [drivel] and slightly motivational [feel good] (even if it's overly simplistic) so overall I approve of it, but I understand your position.
A lot of philosophy was pushed forward by confidently "wrong" (not the perfect term here, but it will suffice) people that provoked others into making a boundary pushing response, thus, being confidently wrong with proper argumentation that requires proper counterarguments is way more valuable than renaming and redefining things to be accurate enough. Its boring, there is nothing to analyze here, its something you think about for 5 seconds and go on. I hate it because there's not a tiniest bit of courage to try and find something new, meaningful, even if wrong
Not everyone can digest or will have the opportunity to read Hume and Schopie, messages need to be appropriate for the person receiving them. And in that case, if let's say an intellectually challenged person needs to accept the honey and the vinegar of life, and needs to be motivated into going forward regardless of pain, maybe this one little phrase is what they need. Relax, man, erudites are rare, the rest need slogans or else they get overwhelmed.
Are you saying that you shouldn't be here, as someone who prefers a slogan? In a place centered around philosophy? For people who actually read it? Go away then, otherwise you are just being silly
I'm saying you need to look at the bigger picture, understand that just like with height and bone density, people don't pick how smart they are so different messages are more or less useful for different people, and not have an unnecessary emotional reaction to a very matter-of-fact (if slightly annoyingly male "Eat Pray Love" vibe, lol), simple little phrase that is actually factual.
The bigger picture is that you are talking within a philosophy centered space, what, are you so zoomed out that you can't see the immediate context you are in? If anyone has enough time to find a place named "philosophy" and chat there they have time for introductory level reading (or even a podcast, that's where I started and it was far from perfect, but we all start somewhere).
God forbid people want actual philosophy in a philosophy space!!!
This is like the silliest form of gatekeeping. Maybe some teen's first actual thought was triggered by reading that phrase, let it be already.
Hard men create hand jobs. Hand jobs create soft men.
People are dunking on this, but shit having a fucked spine and doing constant PT makes me feel this is a good outlook
Nice meme, and i take the point. Self-work can be painfully. Another sage similarly said, you cant make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
However in this meme's formulation I'd wonder about the definition of suffering. (And also "remake"). Not to pick appart the sentiment of the analogy too much, but biological, sociological, psychological and really most systems that make up life operate very differently to marble. And thus can be moulded and reformed with very different tools and procedures than hammer and chisel.
Work tends to be (even definitionally) an effort, whether on yourself or otherwise. But there are many ways actual suffering might be minimized or alleviated. Chemically, socially, procedurally, etc.
Yet another philosopher, Thomas the Tank Engine, said for example, nothing works like team work. Does marble take into consideration that friendship is, philosophically speaking, magic?
I appreciate your attempt to meet OP where he is instead of using big words and fancy concepts.
I agree. If people want to use those, they should go back to /c/philosophy
Team work requires the "suffering" of learning to cooperate without wanting to impose yourself, or, on the opposite end of personality traits, forcing yourself to speak your mind when it would be useful instead of being passive and quiet. "Suffering" does sound a bit dramatic though, lol, although I guess it encapsulates everything from mild discomfort to actual pain.
Macho bullshit.
👆 He was right
You're both the prison and the captive.
All about Philosophy.