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The bloody Trots are bloody everywhere! (thelemmy.club)
submitted 3 months ago by to c/chat@hexbear.net
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I talked to them and they were pretty nice. Tried to sell me a newspaper though! But I expected them to do that.

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[–] 33 points 3 months ago

I wish they would stop calling for a general strike (TL: one day work stoppage) for like 5 seconds and start doing the organising work required to actually call and carry out a mass, discipline, organised labour action lasting months!!

But still, good they come out to stuff. Just wish they didnt derail organising meetings rehashing the general strike thing every 5 seconds

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    [–] 31 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    You should probably delete this and blur their faces if you repost.

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago* (5 children)

    The flag says "Revolutionary Communist International". The pin and t-shirt says RCI/RCP. This is a well known Trotskyist party. They own the url "marxist (dot) com".

    They're outside in a public space. They're not trying to hide their faces; they're selling newspapers. Trotskyists are most often criticized for supporting western imperialism. I doubt that they're in any sort of danger.

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  • [–] 20 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

    First off everyone who is anticapitalist in public is in danger. As for censoring , It's a courtesy we should just adhere to on this site considering we do/did the same for protesters and photos of them, even though protests happen in public and by people who didn't always mask.

    I just figure that the same rule of thumb should be extended, especially considering that now OP has also somewhat self doxxed by posting this photo as well. But this website is weird about trots sometimes so

    Edit: I'll also note that the things you bring up ,namely that the org name is visible, is very different than the personally identifiable image of a face, and mixing the two together is silly.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    First off everyone who is anticapitalist in public is in danger.

    This sentence doesn't contradict my comment at all.

    Were the Trotskyists doing "anticapitalism in public" when they supported the Hong Kong separatist movement in 2019-2020? The Hong Kong separatist movement which was sponsored by the National Endowment for Democracy.

    Beyond that, RCI has a Taiwan branch with active chapters in at least 6 cities. They oppose Chinese re-unification. They oppose Mao. They oppose Xi Jinping. They oppose the CPC. Open the article below that RCI published and translate it. RCI says that "Taiwan is already a fully independent country".

    https://archive.is/dmIT7

    This is just one example. RCI holds many ideas that most hexbear users would not agree.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    You said that you doubt they are in danger, that is where the contradiction between us is.

    I read the article and want to give more context after reading it.

    They are anti Taiwanese nationalism in the capitalist sense that the DPP puts forward, you cxan read that at the bottom slogan or this excerpt:

    spoilerAs the Sino-US conflict in Asia intensifies, the manifestations of the ethnic issue will become more acute. In this case, the Marxist task is not to follow behind a reactionary camp, but to expose the class interests behind the different camps. The DPP demanded that the people of the country unite against China. They said, ‘You’re not going to sell.’ In fact, the DPP and its to-party, such as Taiwan’s radical, have elevated this hysterical logic to the extreme, and stigmatized anyone who opposes the government for any reason, especially the workers in the struggle, as “the common passers-by.” But this is a wrong dichotomy, and Marxists are firmly opposed to it. There can be no unity between the working class and the capitalists, that is, between the exploited and the exploiter, regardless of nationality. The problems faced by Taiwan’s workers and the poor have nothing to do with Taiwan’s independence. The pressure of living standards, the increase in the intensity of work, the austerity and corruption imposed by the Taiwan government, are not imposed by China, but by the Taiwanese capitalists, and the main representative of this class is the current DPP. In other words, what the DPP demands is that the working class should subordinate its interests to the interests of the ruling class. If the workers want to get rid of this endless decline, their only way out is to overthrow the bourgeois class in Taiwan and start social change in socialism. This is not “national unity” but a revolutionary class struggle. Therefore, in response to a series of hysterical "anti-China" remarks, we are going to say: "The main enemy is at home!" The main enemy of Taiwan’s working class is the Taiwanese bourgeoisie, which is currently led by the DPP. The struggle against Taiwan’s capitalism cannot be separated from the struggle against Taiwan’s nationalism, which no longer plays any progressive role for the Taiwanese masses and is a stop to the liberation of Taiwan’s proletariat. In order to combat Taiwan’s ruling class, Taiwan’s Marxists and revolutionaries must engage in uncompromising struggle to expose the reactionary nature of Taiwan’s nationalism.

    I don't see anywhere that they oppose Mao. They characterise the Maoist communists as a peasant army which I think is not entirely wrong but a little unfair. The Maoists did draw much support from urban areas as well.

    They do oppose Xi Jinping and the current CPC which they characterise as bureaucracy, that is true. Trots love that word. They are promoting an international worker-first stance that I would say borders on naive. I'm not as negative as they are, but I think there are fair criticisms to make of the CPC.

    As for Taiwan being independent , you've cherry picked a quote. Here is the whole passage.

    spoiler

    The only difference between the status quo and the state of Taiwan’s declaration of formal independence is that the country will be included in Western-controlled international organizations such as the United Nations and the International Monetary Fund. It also means that Taiwan can establish formal diplomatic relations with other countries – that is, with countries that are not within the scope of China’s influence. But this development will not bring little improvement to the lives of ordinary Taiwanese workers and young people.

    Therefore, when Taiwan's liberals take a position of resistance against China or support Taiwan independence, they really mean pro-American and pro-Western. This does not mean the independence of Taiwan. It would mean that the masses of Taiwan will be more in favor of the banks and big monopolies of the United States and other Western powers.

    U.S. imperialism is the enemy of the masses in Taiwan and around the world, and it is the duty of Marxists to warn the working class against any illusions about it. Our task is to expose the true class interests behind the rhetoric of the liberals and the imperialists.

    So the stance is not just "Taiwan independent now!". Reading on , they do not oppose reunification per se. They understand that popular Taiwanese opinion for whatever reason is not necessarily pro CPC especially if it requires a war. They instead put forth that a socialist, international unification of all workers is preferable, especially with the Chinese workers.

    You can call that naive and wrong and be in disagreement ,but to paint them say they're dox worthy is unfair. Nothing in the linked article warrants it.

    They are Trots and this is a ML dominated website, of course many will disagree. I personally don't agree with many of their stances, and I think they couldn't thread the needle with their neither Beijing nor Washington stance.

    If the photo was anarchists, who have even less in common with MLs than Trots, would that be fair? Or are we supposed to have an anti sectarian stance here.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    In general, it's not really good for any of us to post pictures of people's faces without their permission. The only time we should do this is when we are explicitly inviting doxxing, which I don't think is warranted for the crime of having a bad political philosophy as a regular member of the public

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    They're outside in a public space.

    This is nonsense. Protests always take place in public spaces. Blurring faces is basic opsec that all leftists (all people, really) should be doing by default.

    The RCI/A/P being shitty doesn't justify doxxing people without their knowledge.

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    • [–] 19 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    We need a Trot mod of the game Paperboy

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Is that a game where you try to sell newspapers?

    ⓘ This user is suspected of being a bear. Please report any suspawcious behaviour.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Basically, yeah. The protagonist is a newspaper delivery person who rides around on a bicycle and throws newspapers at subscribers' houses in a suburban dystopian landscape rife with various obstacles. And for some reason the Grim Reaper.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Okay, that would be funny if the protagonist was explicitly a Trot and it was explicitly a Trot paper he works for. I swear, selling newspapers is the only thing they're any good at. I heard one tell me that having their members sell the newspaper is a way for them to learn organizational skills, which explains why the only thing they're any good at as a broad group is selling their newspapers.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    To do it properly, there would absolutely need to be a stage where you drive Trotsky's armored battle train and fire rolled-up newspapers out of gun ports on the sides.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 3 months ago

    Okay, that's hilarious and very Trotskyist, to use such a vehicle to distribute a newspaper of all things.

    The problem with this, is that it would make Trotskyists look a lot cooler than they are.

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    • [–] 17 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    I think I see a straw hat (or a few) luffy-pog

    not quite vanguard vibes, but seems fairly wholesome at least sicko-wholesome

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 3 months ago

    There were other leftists there, not just the RCP.

    The local MLs were there, but they were a stereotype. It was two guys with a bag full of pamphlets, one of them in a "Let Cuba Live" shirt, and the other one... torn, stained, red shirt with a hammer and sickle and "CCCP" on it. A classic "washed up Soviet sympathiser" image. I saw them and literally facepalmed. They made MLs look like a joke, next to the Trotskyists, and that's a feat, for sure. I still let them put me on their mailing list, though, and they insisted on giving me some pamphlets. At least they didn't try to sell me a newspaper!

    There were some anti-imperialist solidarity group people there, too. They claimed to be Maoists. The girl I talked to was really nice and cool. But most people who hate imperialism are neat people, so.

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    • [–] 13 points 3 months ago

    ✊!

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    [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    Always off by themselves

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    [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    RCA is an absolutely terrible org, but with a lot of cool members. If they ever get over their "anti-Stalinist" brainworms enough to actually engage with theory, some of them might become effective comrades.

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    [–] 6 points 3 months ago (12 children)

    What's a trot?

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    "Even though at one time Trotskyism represented an erroneous position, but a position in the field of political ideas, Trotskyism became during the following years a vulgar instrument of imperialism and reaction. This is the way these gentlemen think. For example, in relation to South Vietnam, where a broad revolutionary front has united the overwhelming majority of the people and various sectors of the population, has united them closely around the liberation movement in the struggle against imperialism. For the Trotskyists that is absurd; that is counterrevolutionary. Yet these gentlemen who serve imperialism have the gall to do such an unusual thing in the face of the facts and realities of history and against the revolutionary movement and to express themselves in this manner. "

    -Fidel Castro, 1966

    Trotskyists support Lenin but opposed the USSR. They also deny the existence of AES states. They oppose China, Vietnam, etc. They also oppose labor unions. They're known for selling newspapers.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Thank you for the explanation. I know very little of trotskyists mostly because it doesn't make sense to me.

    Also why do they sell newspapers?

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 3 months ago

    why do they sell newspapers?

    It's like an unwritten rule of Trotskyism. Every Trot org sells newspapers. I swear half those parties only exist to sell a newspaper. I think they only do it because it's the only thing the Bolsheviks did that Trots are any good at. They say they're less dogmatic than MLs and that a leftist group should never do anything they don't understand their own reasons for just because Lenin told us to do it, but I think Trots only put out newspapers because Lenin said a communist party needs a party newspaper.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    Nothing they said is serious or accurate. Maybe the newspaper thing, but the Bolsheviks sold newspapers too. No revolution has ever succeeded without counter - propaganda. Stalinists massacred Trotskyists in every instance mentioned and seized the editorial and propaganda apparatus developed by the trots, turning it into a mouthpiece of grasping bureaucrats.

    Sectarian MLs hate trotskyists so that they dont have to feel bad about the unjust mass murder of us in every instance mentioned. Its total projection.

    Edit: not all MLs are sectarians, but the ones who got their views from a podcast on Losurdo and uncritically parrot apologism are shameless and dangerous to our movements

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    They dont deny the existence of AES states, they call them deformed worker states, they also participate in labor unions (in argentina for example)

    I get not liking a tendency but you should dislike them over things the say and do

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago*

    Trotskyists support Lenin but opposed the USSR. They also deny the existence of AES states. They oppose China, Vietnam, etc. They also oppose labor unions.

    Sectarian lies. The reason sectarian MLs hate and lie about Trotskyism is because if they didn't they would have to confront the fact that every desperate grasp for power by the moderate bureaucracy they refer to as "Marxism" involved the massacre of other communists.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    newspaper salespeople

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 3 months ago*

    Especially when they table out on streets. Then they really look like the stereotypical late 19th and early 20th century newspaper saleskids shouting out headlines to try to get people to buy a newspaper.

    Or they end up looking like the commie version of a street preacher, and making all communists look as irrational as the street corner doomsday preachers.

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    • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    I'm a Trotskyist, AMA. This thread is full of sectarian takes about us. I'm not gonna defend every sect of Trotskyism but people really dont understand us, and sectarian keyboard warriors love doing apologia for mass purges and massacre.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago

    Hello, comrade. I met a lot of cool people when I was in the RCA.

    I won't speak to your personal ideology, but Trotsky wasn't at all opposed to purges. They're a necessary part of maintaining demcent.

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