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[–] 139 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (31 children)

Oh my God, I super agree, probably in a way not a lot of readers here will expect.

Joining narcotics anonymous or alcoholics anonymous comes with an immediate expectation that you will “accept a higher power”. It is step one of “the program”. I find that profane as an atheist. And it was a huge problem when I tried to join the program.

I won’t get into it further, because it would be long enough for its own post, but the religious dogma in the 12 step programs, including alcoholics anonymous, is an incredible and introductory load of the bullshit that only expands further into more egregious loads of bullshit as you progress through the 12 steps. Some of it helps. Some of it makes everything much worse.

The 12 step recovery programs were invented by amateurs in 1936. If you’re looking to recover from addiction, there have been invented far more effective programs for recovery in the last 100 years by professionals who actually know what they’re doing.

If you want to treat your addiction to alcohol or other addictive substances, do your research. 12 step programs have, at best, a 6% success rate. They are your worst option. You can do better. You deserve better.

12 step programs are only there to shame you and guarantee failure. You will get nothing else there other than a community of shame and failure. And garbage religious dogma shoved down your throat.

Edit: I will say, however, that the vast majority of the people in those programs are looking not only to help themselves, but honestly caring enough to try to help others. So I am not judging them, just judging the program itself and how it has aged out of its own usefulness.

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  • [–] 20 points 6 months ago (8 children)

    Wow. Im an atheist. Im in an aa mtg room waiting for the mtg to start. No one gives me shit.

    Step 2 is just accepting help. Admitting your not the one that has the all the answers. Every modern treatment ive heard of in 20 yrs either cribs aa, or eventually recommends it. Its not perfect, but I know dozens of people that are only alive because of it.

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  • [–] 16 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Different approaches work for different people, and every room and every meeting is different. I've personally found Smart Recovery to be more helpful.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I've never found them anywhere I've lived. After a quick google, it seems the main difference is the powerlessness in 1 and the higher power in 2. To me that's just recognizing i cant stop once I start, and I cant stay stopped without help. Thats it thats all. Its not something I was taught, I've proven it to myself. Some people see a devil/God thing there because the culture in America in the 1930s was nominally Christian, and more observant than today.

    The main benefit is I can find a meeting in almost any town, any day of the week. I feel at home in a meeting where I know everyone knows what its like to deal with addiction. I can sit down and feel ok, instead of on gaurd.

    I am interested to know how low bottom cases fare in smart recovery. I mean like homeless junkies that boost for a living. 12 step recovery seems to have started from the bottom, and smart recovery from the higher bottom cases.

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    One of the steps is believing in a higher power. I was kicked out of rehab for denying this sentiment. They try to say that "OH, it could be anything!" and then continuously push Bible verses on you. The AA handbook is mostly Bible verses and evangelical propaganda.

    The core ideas can work for some people. If those meetings help, despite your beliefs, then keep going. The one thing that has helped me is actually wanting to stop. That takes a lot, even if you don't recognize it.

    They will blab on and on in AA, and it is 100% based in biblical texts (though there is an attempt to include everyone). And, sadly, one of the main things they will do in rehab is force you to sit in "meetings" where they have a guest speaker join. Guess what that speaker does - they try to convince you to join a very expensive rehoming, AA, or NA living facility.

    My point is, the end goal is to want, not need, to stop. This takes a lot. After 20 years of drinking I had to want to stop to actually do it. For the same amount of time for smoking, the best I could do was switch to modern nicotine pouches. It worked. I haven't smoked in about 7 months, but since I don't want to give up nicotine yet, I can't. I'm trying to want to.

    This is a long comment now, but my point is that the entire goal of the 12 steps sans religion is to convince yourself that you don't want that anymore.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    There are no official AA or NA living facilities. Its against the 12 traditions. If someone characterized it that way to you then they were mistaken, or some group that isnt AA or NA is trying to take advantage of their reputation.

    I've lived in recovery houses. A home that is maintained as a place for recovering people to live. Sort of like a halfway house, but not for people being released from jail. It was the only rent I could afford, being homeless (100 a week 20 yrs ago, where rent on a studio was double that). They required attendance in some recovery program, but not necessarily 12 step. It was a come up for me. If you own a home, or are stable in your housing in some otherway, its not really an advantage.

    Unless you know the people there. I moved into 2 houses where I had already been friends with the people living there, through NA mtg attendance. So it was just like having roommates. Thats often not the case though.

    I see people poo poo 12 step recovery and recovery houses all the time, and Ill admit, we're talking about unstable people doing their best. I had already developed a good street sense by the time I hit the rooms, so if thats not the case for you, it can be off putting to find out what its like at the bottom for a lot of people.

    The religious stuff, ill just say, you were talking to pushy individuals. They are out there. I actually have people tell me that theyre glad im an atheist, so a new person can see they dont have to listen to the Bible thumper in the mtg. I shoot em down every time. Im too smart for their scripts lol.

    I just dont want someone to read this thread and avoid their local group without ever trying it. Its free and lasts an hour. If you think the people are assholes, try a different 1 maybe. After a couple hours investment, you'll know if you can hang with the folks there or not.

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago

    They took some anecdotal evidence from people that weren’t addicted to justify the “do it for a higher power.” People with issues (of almost any kind) more often feel shame bc they are letting the “higher power” down. It leads to disaster a lot. I love your insight.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (6 children)

    While I largely agree, most (not all, ofc) AA chapters will clarify that a “higher power” doesn’t have to be god. Could be fate, causality, or just the universe in and of itself - the purpose of the step is surrendering and accepting that you alone cannot resolve your addiction.

    That being said, religion is pushed on you more often than not and many chapters will end with “the Lord’s Prayer” which always bothered me, along with other issues.

    It’s not a perfect system, but it does work for many people and if it has helped you then all power to you (or rather your higher power, I guess)

    My main gripe is that it often focuses on the symptoms rather than the root problem. Addiction is often the result of a deeper underlying condition that leads one to seek escape using substances, which then leads to physical and/or psychological dependency- be that depression, trauma, psychological conditions, etc… Treating the addiction alone can break the dependency but leaves alone the same conditions that led to substance abuse in the first place, which I believe is why you will so often see people repeatedly cycling in and out of the program.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    I appreciate this post!

    I've never been to a meeting, but I've always heard the only way through AA is with God. And as a lifelong atheist, I don't think that would work for me. I'd just be lying to get them to shut up lol (which would not be doing myself the real service I would need at that point).

    I'm surprised there isn't a more secular AA program. I can see the appeal of AA meetings without the 12 steps piece.

    What's the point of accepting a higher power? Is it so that we can just put the blame on them? Or accept our place in this grand equation? I think we can already do the latter without a god.

    I'd love to read more if you do end up making a separate post!

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  • [–] 78 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    It's from the brain damage.

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  • [–] 84 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    It's because they deliberately proselytize to vulnerable people at their lowest with promises of belonging and redemption.

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  • [–] 36 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    To expand on this, AA is run by Christians that tell you only God and the baby Jesus can save you. Then they wait outside the meetings and pass out propaganda pamphlets. Scientology waits outside NA meetings. They are preying on the weak. It’s gross.

    Wrong answers only… who hangs outside Sexual Compulsive Anonymous?

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  • [–] 32 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    I quit drinking and thankfully never had to go to a meeting, but I've always heard that the only way through AA is with God.

    I've been an atheist my entire life, so I don't think that would have worked for me lol hopefully we'll never know.

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  • [–] 21 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I did need AA to get sober. Also as an atheist, it took me quite a few meetings to find a group that aligned with that. I honestly stayed away from getting help for a long time due to my concerns with the faith aspect.

    My GOD was a Group Of Drunks in a meeting that I believed in and we helped each other stay sober.

    Haven't been to a meeting in five years. However I don't think I would have gotten sober eight years ago without the community I found in AA.

    Still very much an atheist. Probably more so now than before.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago

    It works for some, and good for them. For me, my health choices have nothing to do with faith, and there's no need to manufacture a big performance around sobriety, and make it my whole personality. I'd rather have and keep the quiet comfort of taking care of myself, to myself.

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    [–] 29 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Literally why The Satanic Temple has the Sober Faction. Secular support groups for recovery as opposed to first step put your faith in sky daddy.

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  • [–] 22 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    either drugs, schizo, or STROKE turns you into a nutty right winger. the trifecta.

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  • [–] 14 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    AA taught me to pray to myself, because I am the only god (creative force) who is along for the journey in my headspace. It's actually incredibly effective. Determination setting. We use the word "god" a lot and get so caught up in what it must mean according to large groups, and we lose focus on what it means on an individual scale, which is where recovery happens.

    The tip is to find a group full of angry atheists because then you get to use the whole hour unpacking religious trauma and bashing the church while you reclaim these words for yourself - "god," that's your word.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago

    I just did a short intensive outpatient trauma program where one woman just kept bringing up her faith in a way like "I listen to the top 40 christian hymns to regulate, you should too!" and I was losing my fucking mind. I don't mind hearing about other people's faith, but I do when its pushed on me as if I didn't spend 25+ years screaming at their god begging for help with no answers. I am working toward the mindset you've described here, though. I'm saving your comment and pinning it in my journal — thank you

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  • [–] 14 points 6 months ago

    -and then inevitably writing a book about it and going to speak public about it at the local prison.

    "I was once like you... but then I FOUND THE LORDS PRAYER in my heart. Low and behold, I shortly found cheques for speaking fees in my mailbox. Hallelujah!"

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  • [–] 13 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Yeah, but paganism, animism, and Pastafarianism are all valid end points, too.

    Worship the sun, it gives us life. What have YOU done for 8 billion people today?

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    [–] 12 points 6 months ago* (20 children)

    The state should be barred from imposing religious indoctrination/pseudo-science (12 steps, etc) as a "cure" for addiction.

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    Plenty of athiests, agnostics, pagans, etc in NA. Look for the queer online meetings for a start.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (14 children)

    I mean, surely the worst part of drug addiction is the uh... Dying? Right?

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    [–] 5 points 6 months ago
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