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[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 years ago (3 children)

Approximately 50% of what you hear is outright propaganda, as we know the CIA’s affiliates churn out. We also see CIA assets pushing narratives on Reddit. The next 25% is poorly researched speculation by an evangelical end-timer, and the final 25% is an accurate description of the PRC’s response to far right, religious terrorism and separatism.

First, let’s just establish using safe, American sources that a bunch of Uyghur people went to fight with ISIS in Syria, then returned. Let’s also establish that there have been consistent terrorist attacks with significant casualties and that the CIA and CIA front-groups have funded and stoked Islamic extremism across the world for geopolitical gain.

Now, we need to consider potential responses.

The CPC could give up and surrender Xinjiang to ISIS. This option condemns millions of people to living under a fundamentalist Islamic State, including many non-Muslims and non-extreme Muslims. This option creates a CIA-aligned state on the border, and jeopardises a key part of the Belt and Road initiative, which is designed to connect landlocked countries for development and geopolitical positioning. This option also threatens the CPC’s legitimacy, as keeping China together is a historical signifier of the Mandate of Heaven.

The next option is the American option. Drone strike, black-site, or otherwise liquidate anyone who could be associated with Islamic extremism. Be liberal in doing so. Make children fear blue skies because of drones. When the orphaned young children grow up, do it all again. You can also throw a literal man-made famine in there if you want.

The final option is the Chinese option. Mass surveillance. Use AI to liberally target anyone who may be at risk of radicalisation for re-education. Teach them the lingua franca of China, Mandarin. Pump money into the region for development. When people finish their time in re-education, set them up with state jobs. Keep the surveillance up. Allow and even celebrate local religious customs, but make sure the leaders are on-side with the party.

Let’s take a moment to distinguish that last approach from that of Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany wanted to exterminate the undesirables. Initially it was internment in concentration camps with the outcome up in the air, with a vague hope of shipping them to Madagascar or palestine, but it later morphed into full extermination. All throughout, Nazi Germany was pushing strong rhetoric of antisemitism and stoking ethnic hatred in the public sphere.

There’s no evidence, including from leaked papers, that the goal of the deradicalisation programme is permanent internment or annihilation of Islam. In fact, the leaked papers have Xi explicitly saying Islam should not be annihilated from China:

Mr. Xi also told officials to not discriminate against Uighurs and to respect their right to worship. He warned against overreacting to natural friction between Uighurs and Han Chinese, the nation’s dominant ethnic group, and rejected proposals to try to eliminate Islam entirely in China.

“In light of separatist and terrorist forces under the banner of Islam, some people have argued that Islam should be restricted or even eradicated,” he said during the Beijing conference. He called that view “biased, even wrong.”

As for permanent internment, we know from leaks that the minimum duration of detention is one year — though accounts from ex-detainees suggest that some are released sooner.

Unlike Nazi Germany, there’s no stoking of inter-ethnic hatred or elimination of a specific culture; the CPC actively censors footage from terrorist attacks in China to avoid such an outcome. Xi doesn’t go on TV calling any ethnicity rapists or murderers. Uighur culture is actively celebrated in the media and via tourism. Xinjiang has 24,400 mosques, one per 530 Muslims. That’s three mosques per capita more than their western peers.

Could China’s approach be done better? Almost certainly. Is it the most humane response to extremism we’ve seen so far? That’s for you to decide.

(Reposted from here )

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago (2 children)

guys imprisoning people who follow a certain religion for "terrorism" is good, now that that's done away with we can get back to our discussion on how terrible gitmo is

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 years ago (1 children)

Could China’s approach be done better? Almost certainly. Is it the most humane response to extremism we’ve seen so far? That’s for you to decide.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago)

That’s for you to decide.

that comment was me deciding youre infringing on my freedoms

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago (2 children)

there's a very big difference between "imprisoning muslims because they might be terrorists" and "imprisoning muslims because they follow islam"

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago

I think it's also important to note that the majority of people sent through the re-education system just ended up with vocational training and a job that paid significantly more than what they had before. That alone is probably the biggest driver of de-radicalization. Who would think that improving people's material conditions would lead to them being less inclined to join a radical separatist organization?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago

Both states say the former though, who are you kidding? You can argue over which one is being more truthful but you're literally just deciding to think critically only about the US's justification and not China's.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago (3 children)

Can't believe 'ISIS existed so we have to put all these Muslims in camps' is an actual take

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 years ago (1 children)

Imagine you could go back in time and have an actual state power in Iraq, instead of the hollow shell US contractors left it with, and implement adequate deradicalisation programmes.

Would you do so? Or would you wait a few years, then bomb Raqqa to rubble?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago (1 children)

I feel like there's room for nuance between doing whatever the fuck the US did and putting Muslims in camps

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 years ago (1 children)

I figured ‘use various measures to target people prone to far right extremism, teach them why that’s wrong, then provide employment, while investing in the region to address the material conditions that led to the unrest’ was the nuanced approach.

I’m sure there are ways it can be improved, and I’m sure their approach has its excesses. I’m just so far unconvinced that there’s any better historic approach to draw upon.

If you know of any, please let me know.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) (2 children)

leave Xinjiang as an autonomous zone, continue to offer voluntary education and work programs and welcome any refugees to China. Carrot vs stick.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 years ago (1 children)

The American South is a region filled with religious extremists, some of whom have already radicalized to the point of committing acts of terrorism. Should we make it its own country and fund their schools to boot? Is that likely to improve the situation or make it worse?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) (2 children)

you can make the same argument for Hamas in Palestine and Herzbollah in Lebanon. Occupying territories which do not want to be occupied is imperialism.

Edit: sorry, I read "American South" as in South America rather than Southern USA. In the case of USA, yes an ideal leftwing government in my world would help fund a grassroots leftist resistance for BIPOC rather than forced re-education camps for poor working class white people

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago

There is a difference between giving the Palestinians their country back vs making a new country to placate religious extremists

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

Occupying territories which do not want to be occupied is imperialism.

Is the U.S. occupying Mississippi and Alabama?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

yeah the american government needs to fuck off and recognise indigenous sovereignty.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago

Of Christian extremists in Alabama??

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) (1 children)

The CPC could give up and surrender Xinjiang to ISIS. This option condemns millions of people to living under a fundamentalist Islamic State, including many non-Muslims and non-extreme Muslims. This option creates a CIA-aligned state on the border, and jeopardises a key part of the Belt and Road initiative, which is designed to connect landlocked countries for development and geopolitical positioning. This option also threatens the CPC’s legitimacy, as keeping China together is a historical signifier of the Mandate of Heaven.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

The CPC could give up and surrender Xinjiang to ISIS.

Do you really think that's what would happen if Xinjiang was given autonomy?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

You dont think "many non-Muslims and non-extreme Muslims" could resist this on a grassroots level - especially if given humanitarian support from China?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago (1 children)

So the plan is to slice up your country knowing that a civil war is likely in the breakaway state? This is getting better and better.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) (1 children)

"your country" is why I have an issue here. The CPC doesn't own China. The people of China own China and if they have issues with the government their needs should be met.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago

ur country” is why I have an issue here. The CPC doesn’t own China. The people of China own China and if they have issues with the government their needs should be me

"the party that rules the state of China is not responsible for the condition of the state of China" -ap1

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) (1 children)

What do you think happens to people in western countries spreading terrorist propaganda? Right they sent them to prison.
Also western intelligence seems to be not opposed to the concept of early deradicalisation, here is an interesting take from Richard Barrett, former director of global counter-terrorism at MI6:

We need to get to potential terrorists before radicalisation, not afterwards Once an individual has fallen for extremist propaganda, it’s hard to change their mind. Better to spot the early signs

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) (1 children)

And why should what western countries do make a difference? Are they the epitome of virtue now?

Also, you're literally engaging in right wing talking points when you describe all the Muslims in the province as terrorists or terrorist sympathisers

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago

Also, you’re literally engaging in right wing talking points when you describe all the Muslims in the province as terrorists or terrorist sympathisers

I'm not doing that, I don't know where you get that impression, but okay.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

Loving the recycling of arguments used by famous humanitarian projects like Myanmar and India's camps

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

Yeah, except this time they're being used and applied correctly instead of used disingenuously by racist twats. Did you even read the fucking post?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

It's not disingenuous because I like the guy saying it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago

It's not disingenuous because there is significant evidence that the reasons are sincere, as outlined in the original comment. What's your response to the terrorism problem in the region?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago)

you forgot the most important part( at least for me): china says UN can visit the area to investigate any human right abuses in the area. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3122800/china-would-welcome-un-human-rights-council-visit-because. also my criticism. I am in turkey and the goverment spents too much on religious affairs but even with that, we have 1 moskue for around 1000 people. Number of mosques seems more than needed for me but that is another country so I dunno. Also censoring terror attacks might be good against racism but people should have a right to access info of the situation. Racism supression should be done without censorchip

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 years ago

Everything written here about how 90% of American "facts" concerning Uighurs in Xinjiang are derived from the inductive reasoning of a Christian evangelical in non-peer reviewed articles is completely true.

That said, I don't see anything written here about the long history of the region which is now Xinjiang as a state or territory. The fact that nothing anyone has posted here discusses that long history demonstrates an inadequecy of analysis of historical conditions. It leads people to say things like, "Uh, a CIA did it" and move on as if everything is now resolved.

I recently listened to an episode of the Historic.ly podcast with Carl Zha, who I think is quite well informed on Chinese history but interprets that history in ways very different than me. In about five minutes he said 1) Xinjiang has always been part of China -- 5000 years of Chinese history! 2) Xinjiang became part of China in the Qing dynasty -- ~350 years of Chinese history! 3) Xinjiang has had ethnic separatist movements and has declared itself an independent state separate from Chinese rule numerous times in those last 350 years (as recently as the mid-20th century with Soviet backing). To summarize, Xinjiang has always been part of China, so long as "China" only begins with the Qing, and except for all of those times when it wasn't.

To not see any contradiction in these statements is to not be able to see the region and ethnic conflicts as a whole in mainland China through any other lens but Chinese state orthodoxy. To not question why Xinjiang today is part of China while also not questioning why Mongolia today isn't part of China is to just be caught in the currents of US and Chinese state propaganda with no critical awareness or historical analysis.