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[–] 75 points 11 months ago (9 children)

Scientists concluded this in the 1990s, and then had to produce yet another study to unequivocally state it again after every time someone claimed to have found the “cause”.

This is part of the reason it was re-named ASD in the first place; it describes a set of atypical neurological development symptoms, not an identifiable state of being. Kind of like “cancer” describes an atypical cellular reproductive state, not a pathogen attacking your cells. Both can be caused by many different factors or combination of factors.

Of course, with ASD, it doesn’t even mean there’s anything particularly wrong most of the time; just atypical, resulting in a person whose thoughts are weighted differently than historically typical, with less interpretation of social cues and a greater ability to focus.

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  • [–] 34 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

    with less interpretation of social cues and a greater ability to focus.

    "ability to focus" is more accurately described as "tendency to focus". "ability to focus" connotes control over focus, which... from lived experience and what I've read, just isn't generally true. Autistic inertia – the inability to defocus and then focus on a new context – is very real. Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder not just because of an ignorance of social cues but because of how rigid, inflexible patterns of behavior often interfere with daily life.

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  • [–] 21 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    Autist here:

    Yeah, describing it as simply 'greater' or 'lesser' ability to control or maintain focus is... well, too simplistic.

    I can, when it comes to task, hyperfocus on something like writing a piece of complex code / software, try to solve a real world engineering problem, do a comprehensive data analysis of some topic, write a chapter of a novel... I can hyperfocus on that for a solid day or week or month, and I have to actively remind myself to do things like eat and sleep regularly, because I know I tend to get obsessively focused on 'the task'.

    Shifting to another task, another very different ... realm of thinking, or way of thinking, is often very jarring and exhausting.

    But on the flip side, when socializing, people tend to say I am scatter brained, overwhelming, because I just flow all the way through my entire chain of concept associations to end up with a resulting... thing I am trying to say.

    Sort of like how modern agentic AI has an 'explain its thinking process' mode.

    Thats just the default for me, its all an explicit, conscious train of thought.

    For me, summarizing that chain of thought into just a resultant 'thing to say' is the difficult part, that I get worse at the more mentally exhausted I am.


    Also, I would say most, not all, but most autists... its not that we are inattentive to or ignorant of social cues.

    Its that neurotypicals tend to process social cues mostly subconsciously, whereas autists tend to process social cues mostly consciously...

    ... and that most neurotypicals actually all have widely variable, inconsistent and imprecise standards by which they judge and perform social cues, but most of them are unaware of this, to the point that they are overly confident that everyone has the same rubric and understanding of social cues as they do, when this very obviously is not the case.

    So, this confuses/overwhelms many/most autists, because they are presented with an inconsistent and variable ruleset, and then also told that this ruleset is consistent and invariable.

    Neurotypicals will often get angry/rude/frustrated/overwhelmed when you try to break this down and explain this to them, presumably because they largely are not aware of / do not have this explicit, conscious thought process, and tend to interperet being asked to formulate it in consistent, precise detail just as a rude, unreasonable thing to ask for.


    Basically, imo, NTs use a fuzzy, fast, less accurate, mostly unconscious heuristic to evaluate and perform social cues, and they tend to be very confident they are doing this correctly...

    ... whereas Autists tend to logically and consciously go through an entire evaluation system, which is more robust and thorough in that its basically a discrete series of probabilistic associations, but this is all much slower, much more 'computationally costly' to perform.

    So, when an Autist is oversocialized, under too much pressure to perform socially, they can get overwhelmed and then either basically shutdown or freak out.


    This also works, imo, to explain why Autists tend to take longer to initially learn socialization cues and concepts... because they are having to build a much more conscious, step by step evaluation model of all possible micro/macro expressions, tonal shifts, inflexions, vocab choices, all possibly relevant context, etc, and this can often be much more difficult to establish when Neurotypicals are nearly entirely unaware of or dismissive of their own inconsistencies and variability when it comes to those things.

    This also works to explain why Autists are often seen as overly straightforward or blunt: They're just telling you the result of their attempt to evaluate a social interaction.

    And this also explains why almost no NT person I've ever met can accurately assess my emotional state / social interaction disposition, yet they almost all are very confident they can do so correctly and precisely.


    EDIT

    And I will here comment on the meta-irony of all of this, that ... any scientist could just ask a 'high-functioning' autist to explain how this works, and they could... you know, trust what a person says about how their own thought processes work?

    But nope, nope, still we are pathologized as if we are strange, alien, confused and confusing others, not valid sources of information as to how our own minds work, when our whole 'problem' is that we are way too aware of how our minds work.

    Why do you think PTSD coincides with the later Autism diagnosis group more strongly than the early diagnosis group?

    Because we have been saying shit like this our whole lives, and broadly, nobody cares and just makes up whatever explanation or understanding they prefer, which is almost always significantly innacurate/incomplete, so we tend to live lives of constantly being slandered and mocked, rarely being respected as human beings with full agency.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    This seems similar to the phenomenon where antidepressants are only effective for about 15% of patients. The benefit is large for those who benefit. For the rest, they're no better than placebo, suggesting the drugs treat one of several causes for the syndrome known as depression.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago* (5 children)

    Yeah but we're not allowed to talk about how that 85% has been prescribed stuff that doesn't help them, very often has negative, deleterious, harmful mental and physical sideeffects, oh and also often cause dependency/addiction.

    Because then when you look at it that way, that would mean basically all currently active, prescribing pscyhiatrists would be open to malpractice lawsuits, and/or drugmakers would be open to gigantic class action lawsuits.

    You know, like with opioid pain killers?

    But uh nope, nope, that can't be allowed to be considered, so .... just don't talk about it.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Doctors are generally not subject to malpractice suits for engaging in what was believed to be the best practice at the time. That's how it should be, because that's how science works.

    Knowing that antidepressants don't work for most people presents a difficult problem though. There is no test to determine whether they will work other than trying them for months. Never trying them would be unethical because they can be life saving and life changing for those who respond. Using them indiscriminately is also unethical because they have side effects and withdrawal symptoms.

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  • [–] 29 points 11 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    Scientists from Cambridge’s Department of Psychiatry found that children diagnosed as autistic earlier in life (typically before six years old) were more likely to show behavioural difficulties from early childhood, such as problems with social interaction.

    However, those diagnosed with autism later on in life (in late childhood or beyond) were more likely to experience social and behavioural difficulties during adolescence.

    I assume that the paper itself frames this a little differently, because what this is saying is trust there’s a correlation between when traits become noticeable and when people get a diagnosis. Which is what you’d expect. You don’t tend to diagnose people who don’t exhibit the traits required for diagnosis.

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  • [–] 28 points 11 months ago (12 children)

    So if autism is a broader term that includes multiple conditions shouldn't we stop using it and start using the names of the actual conditions? Isn't it basically like hysteria which was split into epilepsy, dissociative disorders, personality disorders and so on?

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  • [–] 22 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child)

    IMO, as a 'high-functioning autist':

    Yes.

    The field of psychology is constantly redefining things based on ever shifting subjective analysis of behavioral patterns, and uh, being someone who very much prefers concrete, consistent, definable rules and categories, logically followable mechanistic processes...

    Fucking yes, please, be more accurate and precise in a more objective way, based on far superior methodology, fucking please.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago

    They do for many, but sometimes I think they don’t know exactly what or it could be multiple things which is why it’s the Autism Spectrum and it’s easier to say they are “on the spectrum” or “autistic” if you can’t pinpoint exactly what.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Or we can take the process-based approach, where we stop caring about defining boxes perfectly and we start caring about patterns of thoughts and behaviors. This may sound woowoo or without empirical basis, but some of the most successful programs for verbal autism are based on these ideas, the AIM and PEAK programs.

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    [–] 21 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    But chief US stientists have discovered that it's all caused by Tylenol!

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  • [–] 21 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Been saying this for years, feels vindicating. I'm ADD and I've been wondering about the possibility of autism, every time I try to look into the symptoms it seems wildly varied, poorly defined and vastly misunderstood. At least with ADHD/ADD you can blame the blood ghosts and do a cocaine about it.

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    [–] 18 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    In other words, "Scientists Conclude Both Trump & RFK Jr. Are Utter A**holes For Believing Autism Is Caused By Tylenol, And You Should Be Voting For Democrats Instead"

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  • [–] 15 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    No. It's Tylenol... Did these people miss the memo, or...?

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    [–] 15 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    The analysis, published last week in the journal Nature, showed that children diagnosed before the age of 6 were more likely to have behavioral difficulties—such as problems with social interaction—from an early age. In contrast, those diagnosed after the age of 10 were more likely to experience social and behavioral difficulties during adolescence.

    So if you have behavioral problems early, you're more likely to get diagnosed early, when you have behavioral difficulties later, you're more likely to get diagnosed later.

    The phrasing here seems to want to imply a reverse causal relationship, but I'm pretty sure the conclusion here is that kids don't get tested for autism before they display autism-like behaviour.

    As for the actual causes of autism, I recently read that the genetic and family is about 60-90% of the causes, making it by far the biggest cause, and not environmental factors like RFK likes to suggest. But it's not a single gene, it might be other stuff, and it's not an on/off thing but a big pile of factors that add up.

    But there are also environmental factors that do have an impact. Not vaccines or Tylenol, but some kinds of pesticides, for example. Maybe that's something RFK could focus on.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

    Its more than a tautology, you are oversimplifying.

    Or, well, as always with writings on or about science aimed at a general audience... the writers are oversimplifying, always read the paper.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-025-09542-6

    What they are describing is that those diagnosed early have a different behavioral psychological profile, different set of observed behaviors, than those diagnosed later.

    They are saying that ASD has roughly two different sets of distinguishable behavioral profiles, and one of those sets is so obvious it tends to get diagnosed early, and another set is less obvious such that it tends to get diagnosed later.

    While they seem hesitant to use the terminology of saying 'there may be two fairly distinct subtypes of autism', likely because they want to emphasize that more research needs to be done, they do not want to lead to people making rash and non nuanced conclusions... that basically is what they are saying, that there appear to be distinct genetic profiles that produce observably different 'kinds' of autism.

    They ran a battery of statstical meta analysis on different genomes and behavioral profiles of Autists, and this chart I think summarizes it best:

    (Those bars are 95% confidence intervals)

    Two, fairly distinct behavioral/neurodevelopmental/phenotypical profiles, that also go along with two, fairly distinct underlying genomic profiles.

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  • [–] 13 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Welcome to 2015. This is not new.

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  • [–] [S] 14 points 11 months ago*

    Sometimes it's worth having new studies that add confirmation and detail to conclusions people have already reached. This article does seem to be reporting on new research.

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  • [–] 13 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Great so now I’ve been downing Tylenol for no reason?

    FUCK!

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  • [–] 11 points 11 months ago (8 children)

    If autism isn't a single condition, why do we lump everyone who's autistic into the same bucket? You've got the people that like trains and struggle with social cues and are sensitive to sound, and the people who broke their carer's arm because their DVD boxset of Dexter's Lab had a disc in the wrong place, and yes both are autistic, but it's unhelpful because when someone says they're autistic, you have no idea what that means.

    I know there's levels depending on how much care you need, but nobody's going "I'm level 1 autistic" in daily conversation. It's not like cancer where you can say "I have cancer" or "My dad died of cancer" and you can then say "It was prostate cancer", because everyone knows what that means.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    the people that like trains and struggle with social cues and are sensitive to sound

    Well there goes the last shred of doubt I had that I'm high masking AuDHD.

    It's not new information, and it's simple stereotypical stuff, but something about the way you phrased it made it hit different.

    My kid is exactly like me, so learning how to deal with my issues is doubly valuable.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    If autism isn't a single condition, why do we lump everyone who's autistic into the same bucket?

    Why do we talk about the autism spectrum like it's a disease (or a bunch of diseases)? The only problem with autistic people is that they live in a society that is made for non-autistic people and it actively punishes them for being different. Kind of like with LGBT people, though I'd say a lot worse in this case. There's nothing stopping people in the spectrum from functioning similarly or better than 'regular' people, other than the aforementioned society.

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    [–] 8 points 11 months ago

    But that's not what politicians with absolutely no scientific or medical credentials are telling me.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago

    It is likely like cancer, a cluster of conditions that resemble each other in the end. Every time I hear someone talk about "a cure for cancer" I say cancer is like car accidents. You could find a car upside down on the side of the road but there could be many causes for it, drunk driving, asleep at the wheel, mechanical failure, hit and run, etc.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    And with that, if possible at all, there is no single fix either.

    Get fucked by an umbrella, RFK

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    [–] 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)

    It’s multiple conditions we group together naively based on surface level symptoms. Same for many disorders.

    The type that comes with gender and sexual fluidity, bendyness, ADHD = rccx caused ASD.

    Then that will have multiple subtypes based on mutation combination within the rccx module.

    (The RCCX module would’ve been excluded from the genetic analysis the report this article is based on - due to its complexity).

    Severe/non-verbal ASD is more likely completely unrelated and caused by dendritic abnormalities (reduced or excessive branching, immature spines, disrupted morphology, etc)

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    [–] 4 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    I thought we already knew, it's a spectrum

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  • [–] [S] 13 points 11 months ago

    A spectrum suggests varying degrees of a single condition, and would be compatible with both the hypothesis that all occurrences of this condition share a cause and the hypothesis of multiple causes. So to claim there are multiple causes is different from saying that cases fall on a spectrum. It tells you that multiple conditions can appear the same way, so they get diagnostically grouped together based on symptoms even though the underlying causes, and so the appropriate treatments, can be quite different.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    The 'spectrum' terminology comes about from the field of peychology only being able to attempt to analyze ... basically, 'symptoms', behavioral profiles, phenotypes, and also the field of psychology constantly changing how it does those analyses as well as categorize observable behaviors into conditions/disorders.

    What this new understsnding is pointing toward is that there is an actual, identifiable, genomic variance of mutation clusters that actually explains how differences in that spectrum of 'symptoms' actually work, what actually causes which ones.

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    [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    In other news: scientists reconfirmed the wheel to be round.

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