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The truth about VPNs? (lemmy.dbzer0.com)
submitted 2 years ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

So I'm pretty recent to the high seas but I've seen a few posts now about "stop relying on your VPN" and "people that think VPNs will protect them are naive" and so on.

So since I believe knowledge is our greatest weapon/tool/super-power, can we get some answers regarding what exactly the doomsayers are getting at? ELI5 why VPNs wouldn't protect your anonymity.

Is it about logging? The country your end-point is in? Something more technical?

Ultimately I'd like to be fully armed in order to keep making the best choices for my fledgling ship as it navigates the vast, stormy seas.

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[-] [email protected] 36 points 2 years ago

The thing with VPN's is that you're only shifting the trust from your ISP to your VPN provider. That provider can still see pretty much everything you're doing and your real IP, if they wanted to. To add to this, plenty of VPN companies have been found logging when they said they didn't. I would say either set up traffic for I2P, or simply go with an actually no logs VPN company like Mullvad, who's been battle tested and doesn't log, and you'll be fine.

People also say that because it's important to understand what a VPN is and does as well. It wasn't originally meant to be any sort of anonymity tool, the technology exists to make it seem as if your traffic is coming from somewhere else - which allows for things like remote work on a local network.

[-] [email protected] 13 points 2 years ago

Important to note that Mullvad has stopped allowing port forwarding, if that is important to your VPN needs. I'm giving ProtonVPN a try now (though they don't make Linux usage as friendly as I'd like)

[-] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

I would say either set up traffic for I2P

Any ideas on how to do this? I've tried using i2p--in Firefox--and can't seem to make it work. Sites that are supposedly up won't load. I've followed all the tutorials that I've found, and it doesn't seem to be doing what's expected. And no, I can't give any details at this second, because I'm away from my home computer, and it's been a few months since I tried.

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[-] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Skip Mullvad. They're removing port forwarding at the end of the month. I've been with them for years and unfortunately have to switch providers yet again.

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[-] [email protected] 18 points 2 years ago

A VPN doesn't make you anonymous, it enhances your privacy. If you login to a named FB account you're still you. All you've done is tell FB you're using a VPN.

In terms of torrenting, a VPN client, if configured correctly, encrypts all data between the device its on and the endpoint. This means your ISP cannot spy on what you're doing. When you leech or seed it also masks your real IP.

But you have to trust your VPN provider isn't logging you. And if you use a provider who's located in a good country (legally speaking) but they own or rent servers in not so good countries (5 eyes etc) and you connect via those servers then the provider has no physical access to them. Tracking could easily be carried out without their or your knowledge.

If you pay a provider with a card or PayPal then there's a paper trail to you. Use a VPN that accepts Monero or cash physically mailed to them.

Make sure your VPN network interface is bound to your torrent client so if your connection drops, your IP isn't exposed.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

undefined> Make sure your VPN network interface is bound to your torrent client so if your connection drops, your IP isn’t exposed.

This is the most important step, for most even if provider logged them it's not going to be the problem when you're just torrenting

[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

your ISP cannot spy on what you’re doing.

ISPs dont monitor torrents, they just pass on complaints from copyright trolls. ISPs have no interest in inspecting your torrent traffic and have always resisted any attempts to make them do so.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Exactly. In Australia by law they had to block certain websites. All they did was block it via their own dns servers as it’s easy and cheap. All you have to do is use google/Cloudflare etc… for your dns and it works fine. They only care if you get complaints/legal stuff.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Another good idea would be to use a visa gift card to purchase your VPN as an extra step

[-] [email protected] 17 points 2 years ago

Almost every time "regular" people get in trouble for piracy, the reason is that they seeded something, a copyright law firm (or their contractor) noticed it, noted their IP address and then either went and got the real life address from the ISP so that they could send you "the bill" or they made the ISP send you something, depending on where you live really.

That means, as long as that that IP address that shows up on that law firms screen isn´t actually "your own", isn´t immediately traceable to you simply by calling up your ISP, you´re already one step ahead in the game.

That law firm might still try to contact the owner of that IP though, either to send them "a bill" or to get them to rat on you. And that´s why it is important that your VPN provider operates in a way that allows them to simply ignore that. Either by operating out of a country that doesn´t mandate them to "help finding you" or by simply not keeping any logs of what actual IP was connected to what VPN IP at what time.

So if you have a VPN provider that maybe operates out or through a country where piracy is legal or has proven through audits that they couldn´t rat even if they wanted, you´re highly unlikely to get into any trouble.

[-] [email protected] 17 points 2 years ago

Using a VPN and HOW you use it all depends on your operational security (OPSEC).

If you're a pirate consumer, then basically you need to keep your ISP from knowing what you're doing, to prevent copyright strikes or shit-letters from Disney etm. A good VPN is fine.

If you're a torrent creator, you need to raise your security a bit, depending on the "hotness" of the content. Rare anime torrent? Eh who cares. But you're hosting HDCams from a movie released yesterday, or games that will be released officially in a week? You need to use a VPN in a country that does not have good relations to your country of origin. Yes, that means if you're in the USA, get a Russian or Chinese VPN.

If you're leaking state secrets, Snowden talked about what he did. He cracked wifi within a 2h drive distance, used a 12dBi yagi antenna, with a burner laptop loaded with Tails (Tor linux distro), and only used 1 cracked wifi per use. Never went back to the same place. Then again, he didn't exactly fare well eventually.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

If you're doing the snowden shit your best covering your entire face and going to a local Starbucks with a tails laptop, dumping every file at once, and ditching the laptop.

Still just get out of the country and upload then.

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[-] [email protected] 15 points 2 years ago

There's often a lot of bad information about VPNs which is never backed up with any actaul evidence.

Sure, you have to make sure its working properly and bound to your torrent client, but if it is, then that's enough to protect you from copyright claims.

There is no evidence of any commerical VPN provider ever responding to a copyright notice. People mistakenly think this, when all that's really happened is they were not connected properly and their ISP got the notice direct. There is no situation where the copyright troll contacts the VPN provider, find the real user, then somehow makes the ISP send a notice to them. Doesn't even make sense.

[-] [email protected] 22 points 2 years ago

There is no evidence of any commerical VPN provider ever responding to a copyright notice.

Because doing so would put them out of business faster than you can say "fuck Spez".

[-] [email protected] 14 points 2 years ago

Exactly - snd yet people still claim their 'VPN ratted them out' - it didn't - it might hve failed, or the user never turned it on, but the VPN provider didn't get a copyright notice from Disney and forward it an ISP.

[-] [email protected] 9 points 2 years ago

Spot on. All you need to do is change adaptor in your torrent client so that it is only allowed to work with the virtual network adaptor set up by your VPN software. That way even when your connection falters, it's never allowed to send a single packet via your raw network adaptor.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

This is the answer.

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[-] [email protected] 15 points 2 years ago

VPNs protect your IP address, which is useful, but it ends there. Your IP is known to your VPN provider and can even still be found by those tech-savvy enough if you don't take the right precautions. Basically, VPNs are useful, but don't expect them to be the ultimate privacy multi-tool. It's more like one of many different tools to protect yourself online

[-] [email protected] 11 points 2 years ago

@PurrJPro @jordank1977 The thing is, VPNs create enough friction for authorities to stop them from tracking you down for downloading a movie.

Also, in some countries it's not even authorities catching you torrent stuff, it's asshole lawyers who basically bounty hunt for media companies. It's only viable for them to screw over hundreds of people at once, they're unlikely to try and argue with a VPN provider.

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[-] [email protected] 14 points 2 years ago

It depends what are you doing. Torrenting child porn? A VPN won't change anything because they'll hopefully collaborate with law enforcement to track you down.

Torrenting a tv show? Usually the vpn company will ignore any requests from law enforcement as it's not a real crime

[-] [email protected] 18 points 2 years ago

as it's not a real crime

Loving the nonchalantness.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Copyright infringement is not a crime. It's grounds for a civil suit, but it looks really bad for Sony entertainment to try to bleed tens of thousands of dollars from a poor family trying to watch a movie they couldn't afford to watch in theaters.

Possessing or viewing CSAM is so severe a crime, you need a lawyer to dispose of it. To not do so is to stay in possession of it, which is a felony. To destroy it is destruction of evidence, which is a felony. Your only recourse is to stuff it in an unmarked box, and ask your lawyer to anonymously hand it over to the local precinct. It is essentially social toxic waste.

ETA [rant] Note that a) Sony (and all the other major studios and publishers and record labels) gladly pirates IP that is not theirs, and also underpays the people that produce their content. And b) Sony freely engages in dark patterns and odious TOSes which is one of the reasons I haven't been able to play Sony games in years. So it is actually more ethical to pirate Sony content (or again, that of any major studio, record label, publishing house or AAA game company) than it is to pay the company and support their ongoing abuse of workers, end consumers and the market.

Also there is one thing you can do to them that is worse than pirating their content, and that is not pirating their content. [/rant]

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[-] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

because they’ll hopefully collaborate with law enforcement to track you down.

Unlikely - most of the time they won't have any logs anyway.

People get caught for CP and other crimes due to lapses in their own security usually - reusing user names across sites, details in photos that can be identified, or simply using a non encrypted connection one time.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago

people that think VPNs will protect them are naive

The correct way to phrase this should be

people that think VPNs alone will protect them are naive

[-] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

That sentiment isn't so much about piracy, but general security. Do keep in mind that the NSA can easily sniff your VPN traffic, even through logless Mullvad in theory, and access your account information to correlate and deanonymize you via subpoena. This is done routinely, and there are thousands of illegal subpoenas done yearly with no repercussion. Fortunately it seems the NSA is only going after heinous criminals, but that could also change. To be truly NSA safe is nearly impossible - did you know your password can be determined by a simple audio recording of you typing it? The NSA has frequently snuck into private residence to install keyloggers as well. What will a VPN matter in such a case?

So a VPN might prevent a DCMA notice from your ISP, but if the NSA starts caring about piracy y'all are out of luck.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

The NSA is always going to have bigger fish to fry than busting individuals for IP violations. Risks exposing their methods in court and allowing their real targets the opportunity to harden their security even more. It would be an incredible waste of their resources.

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[-] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

Try to find a VPN that’s a nonprofit or community oriented. Usually the VPNs with the most marketing and advertising are the most profit driven and less concerned about your privacy. Use DDG, Brave search or anything but Google to research. A lot of people don’t understand that Google is just an advertising company that uses it’s search engine sell products, they also get commission through referral, so it’s in the company’s interest for you to pay more.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

I think the big issue with commercial VPN's are that you are trusting your traffic through someone else's infrastructure where they're typically a target for malicious actors.

If you want to be relatively sure of your privacy, use something like a cloud vm from for example digitalocean and install wireguard on it using https://pivpn.io

I have a home vpn where I connect to my home lan using the wireguard vpn app on my phone. Which means I get more privacy since mobile providers often slurp up dns queries to sell to advertisers and also it allows me to use my pihole for adblocking on my phone.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

At the end of the day arguments for or against a particular solution are going to depend on what threats a person considers most important to protect against and where they're willing to put their trust.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

And if all you're doing is downloading torrents, your need for protection is pretty low as all you're trying to do is hide your IP address from some corporate lawyers.

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[-] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)
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[-] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

I use a VPN to avoid captivation portals. That alone makes it worth it for me since I can have free internet connection, my ISP just puts a captivation portal instead of just cutting off your internet access.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I think this is not how it works. It's like saying: I'll connect a physical lock to my laptop and I'm more secure. (Many PC laptops have on the side a standardized connector for physical locks which is often used in electronics stores)

Better to go a step back and to consider your Threat Model. What are you doing? What are things that could likely happen right now? Is adding to your security/backing up your Threat Model or is it making things worse because it's adding stuff that you don't need, making workflows so complicated you're likely to misconfigure?

To give a more practical example, there have been a lot of conspiracy theories about Antivirus software. In some sense the nay sayers are right and it actually adds possible holes since they tend to run with elevated privileges. On the other hand, does it really matter for your use case? If you download random stuff online, you should probably install one. (Probably also for your fellow humans so your computer doesn't end up being a botnet host) But if everything on your computer is hand-picked (TM), you might be actually right and they decrease security.

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this post was submitted on 20 Jun 2023
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