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submitted 1 week ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[-] [email protected] 69 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

TIL

Sealioning (also sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity ("I'm just trying to have a debate"), and feigning ignorance of the subject matter. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate", and has been likened to a denial-of-service attack targeted at human beings. The term originated with a 2014 strip of the webcomic Wondermark by David Malki, which The Independent called "the most apt description of Twitter you'll ever see".

Image of the webcomic mentioned

[-] [email protected] 24 points 1 week ago

It's actually a strategy of spreading bullshit and then somehow blaming the person who asks you to back it up.

[-] [email protected] 23 points 1 week ago

Yeah I'm kind of mixed on this concept, because there is nothing wrong with asking for a source and/or asking someone to explain their position. And it seems like a really bad idea to discourage people from asking questions like that.

[-] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago

I understand where you’re coming from, but it’ll be easy to tell. Someone who’s sealioning will skip or “forget” points you’ve already made when they’re making their counter arguments. The conversation will be irritating and demanding.

Someone who genuinely wants to discuss and learn won’t wear on you that way. Their replies won’t have that “I outsmarted you and you’re an idiot” kind of feel. It’s hard to explain, but people can recognize the difference. I don’t think there’s a threat to honest debate here.

Yes, it’s possible to confuse sealions with people who are simply rude and obnoxious, but since I don’t like talking to either one, I don’t much care.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

The problem is not that it's hard to to tell who is or is not sealioning. The problem is people using "sealioning" to go on the offensive against those who ask them to provide evidence or citations for their statements.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

Fortunately, common sense usually works there, too. If person A makes highly specific or unusual statement, person B reasonably asks for a source, and person A angrily responds with defensiveness and accusations, then it’s pretty clear that person A was talking out of their ass.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

Forgetting points that were already made is something that I commonly encounter, but I just attribute that to people being generally forgetful. I don't have any expectation of other people putting in much effort in rereading the whole thread before each response; so if someone forgets what was previously discussed, I'll just respond with a summary and continue from there.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago
[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago

Seems to me that's the point of it: to stop people asking questions in good faith and then persisting on challenging lies and disinformation.

[-] [email protected] 16 points 1 week ago

Yeah. I strongly dislike this whole classification that politely asking someone to back up what they said, or asking basic questions about it, is proof that you’re a terrible person and grounds for immediately quitting the conversation.

It also strikes me as relevant that the same people who say it is a sin, also tend to have no problem with overtly toxic behavior like slinging extreme abuse at anyone who disagrees with them or otherwise being an asshole.

[-] [email protected] 20 points 1 week ago

I mean there are some keywords and phrases in the actual textbook definition here like "trolling", "harrassment", "incessant bad-faith invitations". It's a legitimate thing, but I almost always see it being used illegitimately by someone to attack another who is simply asking them to back up their statements. For example:

A: statement

B: What is your source for this statement?

A: sToP sEaLiOnIng!!!

[-] [email protected] 15 points 1 week ago

I think the difference is that sealioning is a pattern of behavior, rather than just occasionally asking for a source. It describes the lack of intent to engage in good faith discussion and instead just is a method of trolling.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago

Yeah. There are genuine types of sophisticated trolling which involve pretending to be overtly polite while refusing to engage in any respect with the substance of what the other person's saying, using politeness as a shield to sneak bullshit and bad-faith engagement into the discourse while making the other person look unreasonable if they start getting irritated about it.

In about 100% of cases where I've seen someone accused of "sealioning," though, it is just that they are trying to engage with the conversation and ask for sources, if you have a certain way of approaching disagreement, that's kryptonite to your argument and so the only response is to start whining about sealioning.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago

I have definitely come across what your first paragraph describes. Both sealioning and concern trolling definitely happens, on this site and on others.

[-] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

Yeah. Probably my least favorite brand of it is when someone wanders into the comments to say, "I heard Kamala Harris wandered over to Gaza personally and shot some Palestinians just for fun, and then stopped by Tel Aviv to engage in some light foreplay with Netanyahu before getting back on a plane home stopping only to personally cause capitalism and so that's why I don't think I'm going to vote for her, I just don't feel comfortable personally" and then reacts with "Whoa whoa whoa that's only what I heard, I don't really know, I don't know why you are getting upset with me, I'm not even sure it's true to be honest, I don't really pay close attention to politics" when I get irritated at them about their type of engagement.

[-] [email protected] 17 points 1 week ago

Do you have a source for this ? Just trying to understand

🤡

[-] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago

A lot of people don't know what it is which the sealions use to their advantage so recognising it is a sealion's kryptonite lol. glad it helped!

[-] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

TIL there is a term for talking to my father.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

The problem I've always had with the term is that you can't really define a term by pointing to a comic and going like, "It's like when someone does this sort of thing." Like there's a bunch of things the sea lion is doing, one is:

pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence

Like if you get a grudge against a user and constantly hound them in every thread about a topic they don't want to discuss, that's pretty rude (and if you do this offline like in the comic, it's straight-up harassment). That's bad regardless of what form it takes. On the other hand, if it's just a regular conversation and not following from thread to thread, you have every right to expect people to provide evidence for their claims. Another is:

maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity (“I’m just trying to have a debate”), and feigning ignorance of the subject matter

"Feigning ignorance of the subject matter," is also part of the Socratic Method, isn't it? I don't think it's inherently bad to be like, "What specifically does this term mean, and why do you think this specific case meets the criteria?" If you believe something, you ought to be able to state things in clear terms, and that's an important part of a healthy debate, it helps the other side to identify the point of disagreement where they break with your line of reasoning. Otherwise, how do you even go about having a productive conversation with someone you disagree with at all?

In my opinion, these sorts of internet neologisms are dangerous even if they are addressing a legitimate thing, because once it's out there, you can't control who's going to use it. For example, "mansplaining" was intended to refer to a specific type of thing where a man assumes he's an expert on a subject and explains in a paternalistic way, while often being ignorant of the subject matter, like random guys on Twitter trying to lecture a female astronaut about how space works. But there are also people who use it/interpret it to mean, "Whenever a man explains something" - even if he is actually qualified to speak on the subject, which provokes a backlash (and obviously the problem is made worse by people trying to exacerbate the backlash, including through sockpuppets).

The ambiguity of the term "sealioning" allows it to be used to shut down good faith questions and discussion, while leaving the accused without a lot of options to defend themself. "What do you mean by 'sealioning?' What specifically did I do or say that meets that definition, and why should that be grounds to dismiss what I'm saying, or to conclude I'm acting in bad faith?" is generally going to be met with, "That's more sealioning." If critically examining the concept of sealioining is sealioning, then I'm just inclined to dismiss the term entirely.

[-] [email protected] -1 points 1 week ago

This is just used to shut people down who have legitimate complaints. Like, replace 'sealions' with 'black people' in the comic, and I would be surprised to find many people who still think it's ok.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago

Nice idea, but not sure I'll follow. Nowadays I just try to ignore sealions and move on.

[-] [email protected] 9 points 1 week ago

I didn’t know it had a name. I have seen this so much on Lemmy lately.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago

No offense, but where have you seen this? I haven't noticed anything like this

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

Lol, good one.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

When done “well”, you can find yourself lured into a long, increasingly exasperating conversation. You can never win by engaging. I just ignore them and move on.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

It's a favorite of conservatives

[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

This should be called "fur sealing." I'd like to see some proof that sealioning is the correct term. A Wikipedia article is inadequate. I am not against the community, I just want the term fur sealing to get a fair shake here.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

The best defense against sealioning is to give people more credit than they want and to believe they are smarter than they let on. "Nobody could be this dumb and if they are, it's fruitless to attempt dialogue" should always be on ones mind.

this post was submitted on 25 Jun 2025
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