Free will is an illusion.
this post was submitted on 16 Mar 2025
902 points (96.5% liked)
Memes
48656 readers
3030 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
Reminds me of the Epicurean Paradox:
You could replace "God" with "Parents" to the same effect.
But arguing that a parent is evil because they see a child committing an error, know it is an error, and decline to intercede doesn't rationally follow. If you helicopter over your kids and intercede every time they make mistakes, they never develop into independent and mature adults. You also induce a lot of anxiety, as you're constantly interposing yourself between the child's desires and actions without the ability to convey the wisdom of your decisions. So the kid sees you as the harmful force, rather than the thing you're seeking to avert.
So what's a Parent/God to do? Do you puppet your child, never letting them stray farther than the length of a string? Do you lock your child in a padded ceil and hand-feed them every day? Do you hardwire their programming, so they can't deviate from your design, acting exclusively on a divine instinct?
Is that really what we consider "Goodness"?
There is also the Calculation Problem to consider. A God-like intelligence might be able to observe far more than a human without being perfectly omniscient. Similarly, they might be able to calculate probabilities more quickly and accurately without being perfectly prescient. If a Parent/God knows most of the things but is not omniscient, does that mean they are unworthy of your attention or the reception of wisdom? At the same time, is it the duty of a Parent/God to restrict the actions of the others in their domain to the things they can calculate in advance? This brings us back to the idea of the Child Prisoner or Brainwashed Child. You're safe at the expense of any kind of growth or personal liberty. God treats you like a farmer treats a veal calf - perfectly unspoiled through inaction.
And finally, there is the problem of Entropy. A God who can foresee everything and recognizes that Evil is inevitable. Is such a God responsible for this Evil simply because it can perceive it? Is such a God responsible for this Evil simply because it cannot prevent it? Is this flaw in God's power a reason to reject it as a source of virtue?
Consider Odin hanging from Yggdrasil, his eye plucked out in pursuit of a way to prevent Ragnorak. He is not all-powerful. He is not-all knowing. He is routinely makes mistakes and even acts out of anger, lust, or petty vengeance. He is fundamentally flawed as dieties come. And yet his primary goal and function - to prevent the end of the world - seems noble enough to justifiably cultivate a religious following.
Parents cannot prevent evil and are not all powerful.
Parents aren't all powerful. But the Abrahamic god is (according to their faith) all powerful. So it could stop any war, any disease, any pain, ... but does not. Either it's not all powerful or not good. Choose. Or, as I think, doesn't exist.
load more comments
(1 replies)
If you read the Bible with a purely objective mind and come away thinking God is the good guy in the story, I have some serious questions about your morality and ethics.
Username checks out?
That is exactly true. Life is only about 3 things: food, reproduction and dealing with boredom. Humans add so many colours to that, that it looks like we do more than those 3 things so that's where you might see free will.
Cults and organised religion - name a surprisingly compatible combo.
I'm also sick of hearing people say, "God never gives you more than you can handle."
I know people who have been driven batshit insane by what God has given them.
I like to think of why people suffer or God allows it like this. Even if you don’t think there is a plan, 70 years on earth vs an infinity of bliss is a good deal.
I think of this too, and then I think God gave humans a brain to figure out what to do.
Church dilemma - knowing the will of God vs affirming that God's ways are inscrutable, According to convenience
What’s the use of being god if every run-down schmuck with a two dollar prayer book can come along and fuck up your plan?
- George Carlin
I don’t think many Christians would actually argue for that first point tbh. It’s not something Biblically portrayed as one of God’s gifts. Free will is portrayed as something that was given conditionally, but taking from the tree of knowledge and specifically eating the fruit of knowledge is known as man’s first sin in the Bible.
I think it’s a bit of a metaphor for a parent wanting to shield their child from the harshness of reality, but as the sheltered child grows older they often want to know more about the outside world and in doing so become exposed to the cruelty. This was my own experience with religion growing up. A teacher of mine one day sat us down and pleaded the above with our class, as many of us grew to see through the veil of how reality looked.
In retrospect I think some things about the world make sense to not be told about, depending on one’s age. However, I think other things should never be hidden, have been hidden, or done in other cases.
Side note: I think the idea of God’s plan is for people to hold love for one another. Lots of people lose sight of what they are called to do and how they are to act though. They’re called to love their neighbor as their self, called to love their enemy, and called to forgive others for their transgressions. I personally think people are called to do good works in conjunction with holding faith, as people are called to act righteously in this life.
I don’t think many Christians would actually argue for that first point tbh.
Then truthfully, I don't think you've had this conversation with many christians. Every single one immediately defaults to that point when confronted with the horrors god would be responsible for if god is in control.
load more comments
(2 replies)
Don't worry, they don't read the Bible, and especially don't read the old testament.
They believe they have god given freedom of action
Did god not have the power to give us free will without also giving us evil?
-
Had the power but opted not to: god is himself some part evil
-
Didn't have the power, did the best he could with the tools he had: god is not omnipotent.
Pick one.
Maybe god itself doesn't have free will and is only acting according to a proscribed set of fundamental laws.
That's the point - the christian god is presented as all powerful, all knowing, and all good. The existence of evil in our universe shows that to be a lie.
I think this is a really interesting read on the matter: https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html
Christianity has gone completely off the rails and isn't the answer, but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a god.
Going by the Bible, it's both. He acted with malice and proved himself to not be omnipotent many times.
load more comments
(2 replies)
load more comments
(6 replies)
Yup.
The teachings of Christianity don't make any fucking sense. (Unless you're willing to gaslight yourself for a lifetime.)
Too bad our entire society is based on this nonsense.
Agreed.
load more comments
(4 replies)
You have the freedom to choose God or face an eternity of unimaginable suffering.
load more comments
(13 replies)
view more: next ›