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You’re asking why this culture is still around when segregation ended in 1964. Culture has a way of sticking, generally. But look at this timeline.
Slavery was a thing for hundreds of years, and segregation for decades. It’s very deeply rooted. I hate it, but I’m not baffled by it.
That's a good point. I just hope that we can let go of the past soon and fix these issues
Most of us have. There are just entrenched centers where the history goes very deep.
Also worth noting, segregation may have "ended" in 64, but there's still soft segregation to this day. There's a massive divide in culture, that's left over from administrations such as Reagan. Racism still hasn't ended, although it has gotten a lot better just in the time I've been alive.
Yep. Interestingly, conservatives disagree on this. They’ll say that black people have absolutely nothing to complain about post Civil Rights Act of 1964. They think that once the law changed, everything else is just a matter of personal merit and fortune. They only recognize institutional racism. They seem to think either that personal and cultural racism doesn’t exist, or (more likely) that that is a personal choice which no one has any business complaining about.
At least Trump seems to be against cultural racism. He said multiple times he wants a leadership that doesn't see color. Even his wife is foreign so you can tell that he's better in that regard compared to the previous administration who constantly made a thing about people's skin color.
Trump seems to just employ people based on their character and won't praise it for being "the first black person in X position" like it has been done previously which I think is a good step in the right direction of getting rid of these racist stereotypes. Because it truly doesn't matter how dark or bright someone's skin is, what hair or eye color they have and before this seemed to have been indoctrinated into people's minds which was very weird.
I see you’ve fallen into thinking that as long as we don’t talk about race, there’s no racism. And that actively trying to do something about racism draws attention to it, and is therefore racist.
The whole “I don’t see race” thing is empty. You can claim you don’t see race and so you don’t want to hear about it, while black people systematically get turned down for mortgages and have their houses appraised for less.
Maybe you don’t “see race” but society as a whole still does and you can see it in the numbers. Pointing that out and asking what we can do about it is not racism! That is not what racism ever was.
I would say that “not seeing race” is all well and good but you shouldn’t try to say that because you don’t think you see race, no one does, and therefore everyone should never mention it again. Do you see how that’s several leaps of logic thrown into one? And it makes you look like you’re desperate to bury any talk of the subject, which might be, you know… racist?
I agree the end state we would all like is one where no one sees race. But there’s no use pretending we are there when we aren’t.
its because slavery.
early u.s. was created on the notion that black people werent people. when those that made money on that being fact were forced to think otherwise, it almost ripped the country in half.
that animosity.. the desire for non whites to be considered not people did not just suddenly vanish. its festered in america. it is ingrained. it is the 'southern heritage' talked about in whispers (and now out loud) with the new fascist takeover of america.
a full 50% of america still hates the fact that non-whites are treated as people.
not just slavery, modern practices like redlining also kept people physically separate until very recently and some form of it still are practiced today
Don't forget slavery never ended, it just got rebranded into prisoners in the prison system
But didn't South America also enslave "black" people?
Brazil took over 10 times more enslaved Africans than North America. That comment is way off.
but why is it more than in south america?
i would guess size and population densities, and government stabilization. what country is 'south america' ?
theres more people in a larger area in a much more stable form of government allowing those socio-economic realities to exist far longer.
ie the united states is super racist.
Brazil did much worse slavery, but the racism is "softer", there was a moment when 80% of the population was enslaved black/mixed people (indigenous were mostly just genocided away).
Because most people are mixed, the racism here today is just on looks instead of ancestry, and AFAIK less violent.
oh Brazil do divide people just not into colors but into classes and not just between favela and the rest but between every single class. It's almost like a cast system. It's really weird hearing brazilians talk about other classes.
Also you gonna have a bad time trying to segragate people by color in brazil lol.
I make 5 cents an hours so I get to live in middle favela, you FILTHY poors who make 3 cents and hour live below me in lower favela
It's the other way around. Low places are higher income in favelas and barrios because they're closer to public transportation, formal services, commerces and salaried jobs. The higher you are in a favela the poorer you are and the worse are the living conditions. For the lack of vehicular access and the chaotic nature of improvised construction means government institutions have a harder time reaching people there. So there's no service support, fewer commerce, lack of legal protection and you're so far away from the formal city that job opportunities are meager.
jesus thats bleak, we should put the Olympics there again!
I misread the title as South Africa so at first I was like what the fuck are you even talking about.
Actual answer: slavery, the civil war, then segregation, then Jim Crow, then redlining, and through all of it slave labor through prisons that disproportionately hold black people. All these things create generational poverty as well. Now it is seen in the attacks on woke and DEI. The United States is profoundly racist.
Racial divides are very much present in South America, but racial tension seems to be a little lighter than in the US. Culturally, Brazil might have gone particularly far down the path of considering everyone part of a shared Brazilian identity, independent of ethnicity. Then again, Brazil has incredible class differences, and how is race distributed between the gated communities and the favela?
One source observes that "[w]hite workers have 74% higher income on average compared to Black and Brown people", so just because the culture might be less racist than the US, the systematic issues are still very much there.
As for race tensions, America has a few original sins. One is slavery, another is genocide. The two meet and interact in an interesting way when one considers cultural genocide: Africans brought to the US as slaves were not only forced to work for free, but they were taken from their families, deprived of their language and culture, and forced to create something new out of their situation. That's the depressing backstory of how blues became so great.
You see this in today's America: What is there of African culture left in African Americans? African music survived and transformed into call and respond in cotton fields, which transformed into rhythm and blues, which eventually became R&B and hiphop. Other than that? I can't think of anything, but maybe I'm ignorant.
In South America, it's a different story. I went to Colombia last year and briefly got to meet some people from the Afrodescendant community working on remembrance. They too were processing not only centuries of slavery and bad treatment, but also more recent horrors of the armed conflict. They did so in ways that embraced their African roots: Their use of colour, their artwork, their whole cultural production still shows clear roots back to Africa. They also have their own food, fuelled as always by "ancestral knowledge". I also felt like their vibe was a mix between South American and African, but that's harder to measure. Importantly however, unlike their American counterparts, there was not a successful effort to cut off these roots made on the basis of pure cruelty. They are highly aware - and proud - of their ancestry.
It's a complex argument, but I think it is an important one to understand why racial divides in the US are so fucked. White Americans are so fucking obsessed about their great grandfather being Irish, yet they don't want to consider the fact that black Americans had their entire history forcefully erased as a potential issue. I think it is an issue, and I think it's part of the reason why tensions run so high in the US.
That's an interesting point. I think the sheer fact that Americans with darker skin might be the descendents of slaves might do something psychologically to some people and shape their identity in a different way.
But I also think that probably many Americans including the ones from European ancestors are probably quite far detached from that culture anyways. And I wonder if Americans with unknown origin couldn't just do a DNA test if they wanted to know their ancestry and get in touch with the specific country be it from Africa or partly European if it was really that meaningful for them.
I for example don't really care about my ancestors. I might come from slaves but I don't really care as I mainly focus on the present. But every person is different in that regard.
Other than that? I can’t think of anything, but maybe I’m ignorant.
According to this guy, some parts of African language were preserved and adapted in certain groups.
That sounds super interesting! I can't watch the video right now, but look forward to checking it out. Thanks for sharing! :)
The understanding of races in Latin America had a lot more shades of grey compared to Anglo America.
In Latin America, there were words for the mixing of various peoples along with a gradation of allowed positions in society.
In contrast, Anglo America typically treated race as all or nothing. Even for mixed race people, they would get classified typically as the lower status race.
That's because most of latin america is mixed with huge percent of population being mestizos. When almost everyone can claim that they are white/black skin color becomes irrelevant. And they were colonized by different people with different culture.
I did a quick Google search and it seems like there are many South American countries with a bigger Caucasian percentage than the USA. As of the 2022 Census, USA is 60.9% . Uruguay having 90.7%, Argentina 97% and Costa Rica has 82%.
In Europe for example the percentage of people identifying as black is even smaller and they're an even smaller minority but even they still mostly aren't separated and are culturally the same.
Caucasian itself is a very US term, in the sense that most of so called caucasians aren't as white as northern europeans. Indians are caucasians, northern africans are caucasians, caucasians are caucasians, southern europeans, turks. Most of these people are 'white' but not 'US white'.
Yes, and Argentina is a very unusual South American country due to this. Brazil has a national identity that is based on being mixed. Countries like Peru or Bolivia have made their own national identities that are different but still don't emphasize ethnicity/skin colour as the US does.
I don't have a precise answer to your post but I'd like to add my two cents - it's not just USA. I'm born and raised in Argentina and moved to Australia when I was 19. Although there isn't a black vs white dichotomy here, people are very, very conscious of skin shades. I still don't get why they obsess over it.
Just to illustrate, my skin/hair color is sort of like Monica Belucci's. My eyes are green. In Argentina I was considered a brunette, period. Sure, there were lots of people a bit darker than me, and also lots of people more white, but I never felt like anyone cared. You'd only bring the topic when describing someone physically. In Australia? I've been referred to as "a person of color" so many times I lost count, and always by Aussies -even aussies who I would consider to be of a similar complexion to mine. Immigrants on the other hand, don't seem to mind, no matter their own color. People here somehow find ways to make the skin tone and background matter, and I'm amazed at how some conversations end up touching the race topic gratuitously. It's in their mindset. They can't help themselves.
Yes I agree it's really weird. And the fact that some people would see a person as "white" and others see the same person as "black" just shows how absurd this concept is and that there isn't such a thing as distinct human races (also skin tones can change depending on how much sun exposure someone gets). All that is made up racism to artificially help humans deal with hate, self-worth issues and finding belonging. But the reality is we're all the same race who naturally look different which should be cherished. The only aspect a human should be judged by is personality.
Honestly all this obsession with ethnicity is making me pretty sick as growing up I never had a concept of this and just saw people as people but nowadays it's so strongly forced on you especially by the internet.
Argentina is also quite racist.
Usa has never tried to break with their own slavery/racism in the past. They have not admitted that it was wrong what they were doing, and that they will never do it again. Therefore it is still there and it remains strong.
Although there are many who frown on racism today, it is only on the surface, only a show.
It is like a law of nature: when you (as a people) have not learned from history, then you are bound to repeat it.
They have not admitted that it was wrong what they were doing
This is a straight up lie.
This is such a blatant lie, that I don't even know what to say.
I kept waiting for that comment you are replying to take a turn and be a joke, but it never did. They actually believe America never admitted they did anything wrong when it came to slavery?
I too am at a loss for words.
Yo, I have no idea. I'm starting to believe that a lot of these anti-American accounts are Russian trolls. They're so unnecessarily antagonizing and hypocritical. Of all political entities in the world to criticize someone else... Europe? EUROPE? Let's take a look at the hypocrisy.
The US is racist!
The US had slavery!
The US supports the genocide of Palestine!
The US spends too much on military and not enough on social welfare!
The US invaded Iraq!
The US is belligerent!
The US dropped atomic bombs!
The US has terrible healthcare!
The US thinks too highly of itself!
The US is too religious!
As far as I can tell, Europe starts shit and the US is left cleaning up the mess. Then, Europe talks shit about the US for trying to fix the problems it creates while they sit over there basking in the resources they extracted. WTF is that?
Extra: Texas is stupid for wanting to leave the union!
Edit: WHY THE FUCK DOES THE US EVEN EXIST??
I think the left is way too anti-american these days and I think the right needs to recognize that we aren't always so star spangled awesome anymore either.
It's disingenuous to pretend that America has done nothing good and are nothing but a bunch of fat racist losers or whatever they say.
But it's also disingenuous to try and pretend like America is number 1 in everything all the goddamn time.
Since this is Lemmy I pretty much only ever see people taking huge stinking turds all over America and aggressively so. I'm not normally patriotic in any major way but listening to these people just straight up lie about America constantly starts to get to me at some point.
I also wonder why so many Americans still casually use the N-Word. It feels kinda surreal to use this considering all the weight and suffering that was connected to that word.
Imagine Jews or Germans with different ethnicity would be casually using the Hakenkreuz and slurs that Nazis used, as a slang in every day conversation in Germany. That would be unthinkable.
I think it is mostly used by AfroAmerican people, and i believe it is relatively common thing to see groups of people calling themselves with a pejorative word used by other groups (i think punk and queer evolved this way too, though the n-word is a much stronger instance, i see the same pattern)
In 1865, the U.S. ratified the 13th amendment that reads "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Essentially ending slavery as we know it.
And since then, the wealthy have been attempting to do everything they can to bring it back.
It started with the black codes and Jim Crow, doing a facsimile of slavery and violence. This merged into segregation, and then on to red linning and unequal judicial practices. In the civil war, the south got poor white men to enlist by convincing them that freed black men would take their jobs, and we see this continued rhetoric today.
As a result, black people have been grouped together by way of literally preventing them from being in white areas, and for the last 70 years, relying on how difficult it really is to move up and out of any area. You know the best way of passing down wealth? Real estate, which black people have been pointedly pushed away from by redlining and segregation. Ultimately, black Americans have developed their own parallel culture, one that white people have historically shrieked away from. So we end up with two very different groups that see each other as different.
Race was invented by Europeans to divide the working class against itself.
That worked so well that every capitalist country has gone out of their way to reinforce it ever since.
I like to think i was a pretty sharp kid. I had it figured out at the ripe old age of 11 that if you could freely swap blood and organs between different races of people then there wasn't enough difference between them to bother mentioning.
noticed that in the USA people are often strongly divided based on whether they identify as being “black” or “white”.
I don't really see this, in my area at least. Other people's experience will vary. I notice my white and black clasmates get along very well. Hate is not born, it's taught. I think this "divide" is more in rural areas. I'm in Philly and it's a very diverse city, racism between white and black kids are almost non-existent (or at least I never witnessed any actual racism between white kids and black kids beyond the kids being "edgy" with their "dark humor"). I mean like, I never heard a white kid said the N word with the hard R.
I did, however, notice a lot of kids making racist "jokes" against me (For context: I was born in PRC, and immigrated to the US). Like white kids and black kids would both make jokes like "Chinese language probably sounds like 'Chng Chng'" and then they both laugh at the "joke" I'm just like wtf dude. Luckily, as you go up higher in the grade level, the less racist people seem to be.
For context, my high school was like (approximately): 30% White, 20% Black, maybe like 15% Latino, 30% Asian.
Now, the school was very shitty, there were bullying everywhere. But bullying usually wasn't based on race.
And despite the racism that I personally have faced, I do have some Chinese-American classmates who were born here in the US, and they seem to get along with everyone else well, so I'm guessing I'm just not "Americanized" enough and its more like Xenophobia more than Racism/Sinopobia. I'm don't use an "American" name so I guess that's is one of the major reasons why I get targed for racism but others who look just like me don't get targeted.
Now, to be clear, that's not to say there aren't racism between white people and black people. I'm not downplaying racism, I'm just saying I'm lucky to live in a place where the racism is very minimal. There are probably some racists in certain neighborhoods in Philly. I did see some trump flags when traveling around the city, so those people definitely exist. But my point is that its so rare and so socially unacceptable (at least in my city) that I'm having a hard time recalling when I personally witnessed any serious (as in a non-joke) racism between white people and black people happened (I mean, other than on those on the news).
But, outside of my city, especially the rural areas... I don't have first hand experience, but those are probably not somewhere a racial minority would want to go to. And I personally would NEVER go to any republican dominated area.
This is sort of what I saw in California - where I'm from, Hispanic people were "the white people", and people descended from Africans were "the black people" and I wasn't aware of any sort of prejudice against Asians, they got lumped under the big umbrella of "white" . But when I was in California it was more like black and white guys considered themselves Americans, all one thing, and discriminated against Mexicans and Asians.
It's all made up, to keep people divided. Not to say there are no historical reasons reverberating still - institutional wealth comes from the past and slavery, so descendents of slaves have legitimate grievance- but the categories/rules of in groups and out groups and who is discriminated against are not the same all over the US.
As others have said, there are lots of divides in various cultures. From what I have heard, many people from the Americas look down on those from further south in the Americas. (Americans look down on Mexicans, who look down on Guatemalans, etc.) I've heard there are still certain views regarding Han Chinese versus others in China, xenophobia in Japan, sectarianism between subsets of Islam, and a basic level of nativism throughout much of the world. For America, the culture started with the era of 'scientific' racism so it started with a color divide. Those old divides remain because certain classes of people keep reinforcing because it helps their narrative. In the same way you can look at what happened with American healthcare through a Marxist, free-market-absolutist, or various other views, you can look at America through various lenses, and the racial one still holds a lot of sway. As long as enough people identify with the grouping, it grants political power to those who have authority in that group. The power is used to reinforce the identity to perpetuate itself and the cycle continues. It takes fairly drastic circumstances to change that.
Wow.