this post was submitted on 27 Dec 2024
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Blåhaj Lemmy is a Lemmy instance attached to blahaj.zone. This is a group for questions or discussions relevant to either instance.

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Neopronouns are not trolling (lemmy.blahaj.zone)
submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.

So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.

I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.

This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 days ago

My interactions with people complaining about this rule led me to delete my .world account and dust this one off from way back when I first joined Lemmy and was trying to figure things out. Regardless of the behavior of a person, I staunchly will never purposefully misgender them/use the wrong pronouns. If I do it to someone else, then I'm telling the world that it's okay to dismiss anyone's identity given the right justification. And that's patently wrong and shitty.

I'd rather be part of an instance that protects identity, that is made for minorities and those who are often abused by the heteronormative world. Thank you for enforcing this and making a space where I can feel safe as a trans woman.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 6 days ago (2 children)

yo only vaguely related, but pugjesus is REALLY being an asshole about drag. i figured this is a safe place to vent lmao

that powertrippinbastards community gets worse every time i dip my head in, i swear

[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Lemmy seems to be getting worse unfortunately :\

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Hi Ada, I stepped in to lock the post and put a stop to the drama, but maybe I should have acted sooner. Our admins have got no problem with respecting drag's pronouns or anyone else's. The social conservatives seem emboldened since Trump was re-elected imo. It sucks.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 days ago (1 children)

You literally didn't though? You locked someone else's post, but not PugJesus' post. You also regurgitated the same stupid line about "dragon fucker isn't a gender" that literally has nothing to do with drag's pronouns. Way to try and curry favour like you care when you clearly, in fact, do not.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

This is a bad faith comment tbh. I locked the second post on this topic soon after I was messaged about it. It didn't seem as heated as the other post I previously locked which is why I'd left it unlocked originally. Perhaps it took a while for that lock to be federated to the blajah instance?

And for the record, that's not what I said, you are (inaccurately) paraphrasing. I do think that drag is a irredeemable troll, but I have always used drag's pronouns to the best of my ability. Just because drag might be trans doesn't excuse drag's behaviour towards other users. We adopt a "fuck around and find out" rule towards trolls and drag fucked around one time too many.

I don't have any opinion on the validity or otherwise of neo-pronouns, I'm not interested in litigating the topic because the discussion always turns toxic - I simply reminded our members to respect pronouns even if they don't agree with or understand them.

If my actions seem like "currying favour" to you, then I can only say that you seem to be determined to take offense.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 days ago (8 children)

"paraphrasing"

yea, i did a bit i suppose. however i think the intent of the above cw is pretty clear. or maybe i'm just trying to take offence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

you allowed a user to come and say a bunch of gross shit in your comm, you fostered a space for transphobia. drag is absolutely an irredeemable troll but drag's pronouns shouldn't factor into that.

in any case, the conversation above was about PugJesus' post, which you hadn't locked when you replied here. if you were choosing to leave one of the two posts unlocked, you could have said so, but you acted like the issue was definitively resolved.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 days ago (1 children)

It's sad to see transphobia being perpetuated on this instance (dbzer0), by an admin nonetheless. Guess it's time to switch instances.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 days ago

thank you for replying to their message as well, i really didn't have the spoons too. you're more than welcome here at blahaj 💜

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Thank you! It's been eye opening to see just how many of them there are active on lemmy :/

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I want to share the above person's comment regarding drag while locking that post:

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/15649022

As well, the post that user locked was not the main post, that was left unlocked for at least another 12 hours. There were two.

I didn't want to report this as I didn't want to face repercussion from moderators/admin on that instance.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 days ago (1 children)

thanks for being around, ada. the work you do is greatly appreciated, even if it’s not readily apparent all the time.

imo @MossyFeathers said it best in an edit they made to this comment, quoted for visibility:

the fucking entitlement of cis people telling trans people how to run their spaces is sickening. I thought Lemmy was supposed to be fairly progressive, yet once again I’m being shown that cis people believe they deserve a voice in something that has nothing to do with them. You don’t get to call yourself an ally when you question someone’s validity.

You disgust me.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Damn, it's really weird to see myself getting quoted in a completely different thread, lol. Tbh, I'm not sure I handled myself all that well; however, in my defense, I was really pissed off because it's no where near the first time I've seen people claim an identity was false, nor was it the first time I've seen someone treat pronouns like a reward for good behavior. I don't agree that using "gender" in the way drag was using it is the correct way of using it, it seems like using a hammer on a screw; however, that's not really for me to decide.

Drama subs are kind of a guilty pleasure for me, which was why I was there in the first place (also I browse all). At this point though, I've blocked pugjesus and I hope to never see their ass again. Probably gonna go back and block a bunch of the transphobes effectively saying that having your identity/pronouns respected are a privilege and not a right as well. What a bunch of gross, toxic individuals. It also makes me sad and disappointed. Lemmy used to be fun. It's not really fun anymore.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago

I definitely didn't handle myself well in response to this either, so please give yourself some grace. The amount of cis people who were trying to assert that disrespecting drag's identity was the right thing to do was huge and wildly disappointing. It's hard to call any of them allies. I've been blocking a bunch as well.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 days ago

it’s raw, and it’s real, and i’m SO glad you typed it out because it’s eloquating some shit that’s been bouncing around my head all nebulous and untouchable like.

and yeah pugjesus is a punk ass. mf has more than triple dipped on being an asshole in just the past 24 hours. anyone who isn’t already in that particular brand of echo chamber would be best off keeping as far away as possible, those kinda toxins are bad for the spirit :/

[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 days ago (1 children)

To be fair, pugjesus is an asshole about a lot of things, not just drag.

/s

I took a look and this is their normal behavior: just the topic du jour that they can use to whip up drama.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 6 days ago

Holy shit this thread has become a prime example of why we love you so much Ada, I've literally never seen a safer place on the internet before and I'm including my own community I run outside of lemmy.

Endlessly defending trans people and banning all those who refuse to accept basic rules, it's incredible although disturbing seeing how many transphobes have come out of the woodwork.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

My only problem is when i use singular they them for someone and they have a problem with it. I speak hungarian natively which has no grammatical gender nor gendered pronouns and it makes so much more sense. The whole thing about gender neutral language doesnt exist. But what makes me mad is that other languages that have genders solved it while english is still messing around and every time i use singular they or dude/guy as gender neutral, someone with neopronouns or a right winger has to point out how im incorrect. This is of course not pointed at those who use neopronouns, just as someone who speaks a language where pronouns dont matter it feels kinda useless.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 days ago (4 children)

My problem is the intense amount of trolls and the harm that they've caused. Ive seen this instance devolve into trolls, counter trolls (trolls), alt accounts (trolls), mods (myself included) not being able to keep up, and admins not doing enough (imo).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

and admins not doing enough

perhaps there needs to be more admins or something dunno just a thought *cough*

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago

I completely agree

[–] [email protected] 12 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

The alternative, is a queer instance that is built from the ground up with gatekeeping baked in to its core. You may be ok with that. I am not. This instance will never be that.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

I'm in agreement with this, but I think people should complain about the trolling behavior and the abusive behavior, and not about the pronouns, because the trolling and abusive behavior is the real problem. Not people using different pronouns or having non-standard identities.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 days ago

https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/respecting-neopronouns-may-lower-your-dementia-risk-d0ae3b0152f6

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 days ago (3 children)

As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don't want to do the wrong thing.

I usually default to "they" unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.

Side question, I'm neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn't putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 days ago

is there a definitive list of pronouns?

No. In the same way there’s no defintive list of genders, it would be virtually impossible to catelog every pronoun, or every single name. So it’s important to be careful because you could always come across a new pronoun that hasn’t been written down somewhere yet. But! That doesn’t mean people haven’t tried :) https://pronouns.page/ is a helpful resource that covers multiple languages.

I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told

This is a good strategy :)

once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts

This is really sadly only an issue online, where trolls and generally just unkind people do pose a real threat. Always respect people’s requested pronouns, but if you do suspect something shady, @[email protected] wrote out a handy guide here https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/12169135

how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?

Yes, it often does. :( Being on Blahaj.Zone is a good start to finding respite from the constant harassment, but even here there are problems as the need for this post from Ada shows.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 days ago

You sound like you've got the right idea and a good handle on things. Neopronouns are generally a very case-by-case thing and not at all common, people who use them generally will (politely and without fuss) let you know, and many neopronoun-users (not all but many) also accept they/them. It's not a thing that comes up a lot, and personally I think people tend to give the concept too much mental bandwidth. The important thing is to be respectful of each individual, if you're not actively being a dickhead you probably don't have too much to worry about on that front.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 days ago

Thank you, Ada. I truly wish it had not come to this, but making this post is one of a very few good choices you could make in such an awfully difficult situation. I respect your vision and commitment for the space you want to create here and I hope it works out for the best.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 days ago

take note bluesky this is how to build trust and safety 💙

and it's another reason why i love it here 💞

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