this post was submitted on 27 Dec 2024
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Blåhaj Lemmy is a Lemmy instance attached to blahaj.zone. This is a group for questions or discussions relevant to either instance.

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Neopronouns are not trolling (lemmy.blahaj.zone)
submitted 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.

So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.

I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.

This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 22 hours ago

My interactions with people complaining about this rule led me to delete my .world account and dust this one off from way back when I first joined Lemmy and was trying to figure things out. Regardless of the behavior of a person, I staunchly will never purposefully misgender them/use the wrong pronouns. If I do it to someone else, then I'm telling the world that it's okay to dismiss anyone's identity given the right justification. And that's patently wrong and shitty.

I'd rather be part of an instance that protects identity, that is made for minorities and those who are often abused by the heteronormative world. Thank you for enforcing this and making a space where I can feel safe as a trans woman.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago

https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/respecting-neopronouns-may-lower-your-dementia-risk-d0ae3b0152f6

[–] [email protected] 162 points 5 days ago (31 children)

Unless someones pronouns are in their username they're getting a "they" from me. Nothing against xe/xim/xir but i ain't checking every profile of every person I debate about whether Sonic would be tempted or double tempted by the One Ring.

[–] [email protected] 67 points 5 days ago (2 children)

i always just use they/them as a default until i know the correct pronouns because it's the most universally genetic anyway :3

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[–] [email protected] 106 points 5 days ago (5 children)

I love how this gets posted for community members, in a meta community, talking about how to engage with our space to not get banned, and then every loser from all comes in here like "umm actually you can't police my speech and umm pronoun bad" and promptly gets banned for being transphobic and breaking the rules that this post said will be enforced.

the mods and admins are doing a good job here, thanks for all your hard work you put in to make one of my favorite spaces on the internet as wonderful as it is.

[–] [email protected] 56 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Won't somebody think of the transphobic cishet men?

They're the real oppressed! """", blahaj

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 4 days ago (2 children)

yo only vaguely related, but pugjesus is REALLY being an asshole about drag. i figured this is a safe place to vent lmao

that powertrippinbastards community gets worse every time i dip my head in, i swear

[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Lemmy seems to be getting worse unfortunately :\

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Hi Ada, I stepped in to lock the post and put a stop to the drama, but maybe I should have acted sooner. Our admins have got no problem with respecting drag's pronouns or anyone else's. The social conservatives seem emboldened since Trump was re-elected imo. It sucks.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You literally didn't though? You locked someone else's post, but not PugJesus' post. You also regurgitated the same stupid line about "dragon fucker isn't a gender" that literally has nothing to do with drag's pronouns. Way to try and curry favour like you care when you clearly, in fact, do not.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

This is a bad faith comment tbh. I locked the second post on this topic soon after I was messaged about it. It didn't seem as heated as the other post I previously locked which is why I'd left it unlocked originally. Perhaps it took a while for that lock to be federated to the blajah instance?

And for the record, that's not what I said, you are (inaccurately) paraphrasing. I do think that drag is a irredeemable troll, but I have always used drag's pronouns to the best of my ability. Just because drag might be trans doesn't excuse drag's behaviour towards other users. We adopt a "fuck around and find out" rule towards trolls and drag fucked around one time too many.

I don't have any opinion on the validity or otherwise of neo-pronouns, I'm not interested in litigating the topic because the discussion always turns toxic - I simply reminded our members to respect pronouns even if they don't agree with or understand them.

If my actions seem like "currying favour" to you, then I can only say that you seem to be determined to take offense.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago (2 children)

"paraphrasing"

yea, i did a bit i suppose. however i think the intent of the above cw is pretty clear. or maybe i'm just trying to take offence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

you allowed a user to come and say a bunch of gross shit in your comm, you fostered a space for transphobia. drag is absolutely an irredeemable troll but drag's pronouns shouldn't factor into that.

in any case, the conversation above was about PugJesus' post, which you hadn't locked when you replied here. if you were choosing to leave one of the two posts unlocked, you could have said so, but you acted like the issue was definitively resolved.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It's sad to see transphobia being perpetuated on this instance (dbzer0), by an admin nonetheless. Guess it's time to switch instances.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago

thank you for replying to their message as well, i really didn't have the spoons too. you're more than welcome here at blahaj 💜

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

“paraphrasing”

yea, i did a bit i suppose. however i think the intent of the above cw is pretty clear. or maybe i’m just trying to take offence. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

The CW differentiates between "misgendering" as usually understood by mainstream folks (i.e., calling a trans-man a woman or vice versa) and the more inclusive concept of "misgendering" (maybe I used the wrong term here??) Ada posted about which includes imaginary identities and pronouns, such as fantasy creatures etc. I think the first meaning is widely accepted (at least among social progressives) but the second is perhaps not, which is why I made the distinction. If you can suggest a more appropriate wording for the CW that will be understood by most folks then I'll be happy to consider revising the wording. I also reminded our users to respect pronouns no matter what they are, even if they don't understand or agree with them.

you allowed a user to come and say a bunch of gross shit in your comm, you fostered a space for transphobia. drag is absolutely an irredeemable troll but drag’s pronouns shouldn’t factor into that.

FYI, I'm not in fact a mod of that community. I only stepped in because I got a lot of reports about this topic and thought it was going off the rails. And generally I prefer to leave user comments intact in that community rather than removing them, since I think it's useful to keep a record of the discussion for future reference. Thus the CW approach on this occasion.

in any case, the conversation above was about PugJesus’ post, which you hadn’t locked when you replied here. if you were choosing to leave one of the two posts unlocked, you could have said so, but you acted like the issue was definitively resolved.

The actual chain of events was 1. receiving a bunch of reports about one post (the first one I locked); 2. coming across this post and expressing solidarity with Ada; 3. receiving a message about the second post; and 4. locking that post too. PugJesus was in fact active in both posts and there was a lot of topic overlap.

I'm sorry I didn't act sooner, but it's xmas and I have other IRL stuff going on. I'm also sorry you folks at blajah have received so much abuse simply for trying to be an inclusive and safe space for trans people. I do my best to be supportive of trans folks and of your instance, but I totally acknowledge I'm not an expert on the topic and may have worded things poorly. If you want to attack me for that, then go ahead I guess, but on a personal note, I am a 50yo gay man who has also faced discrimination and abuse in my life, so please have some consideration for my feelings too, because being (imo) unfairly accused of being transphobic is hurtful. Thanks.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Misgendering is misgendering, fullstop, no distinction to be made. They aren't "imaginary identities" they are just identities. It's sad to see transphobia being spouted by an instance admin of what I formerly considered a safe instance to be apart of.

By considering invalidating neopronouns to not be "misgendering" you are essentially invalidating those identities, and certainly doing so by calling them "imaginary".

Additionally, perpetuating transphobia at all is disgusting. There shouldn't be a cw, it should be removed, and the user should be banned. The modlog has logs if seeing the context is needed.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 day ago (4 children)

I personally agree with you about the "misgendering is misgendering" point, and that's Ada's position for Blajah, but most folks on our instance don't seem to share that perspective when it comes to certain types of neo-pronouns, so I feel some distinction is still useful. And even if someone generally supports trans rights and the right to be correctly gendered according to an individual's preference, according to this thinking they are labelled "transphobic" if they don't extend this acceptance to include identities like "dragon fucker"? To me, that seems unfair. Those folks are at least trying to be trans allies for all intents and purposes, just not to the degree that you would like. To lump them in with folks who genuinely hate trans people is imo wrongheaded at best, and it seems counterproductive. For those folks who are on a journey towards a broader acceptance of diverse identities, you are basically adopting a "scorched earth" approach towards them simply because they share 90% of your views and not 100%.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

but most folks on our instance don't seem to share that perspective when it comes to certain types of neo-pronouns

It doesn't matter what a random person's opinion is. What matters, is what they do about that opinion and the consequences of their actions.

In this case, even if someone is actively and deliberately using an identity they don't hold to troll and cause trouble, it doesn't become ok to misgender them or ignore their pronouns. The damage of misgendering and making pronouns something that only get rewarded for good behaviour isn't to the troll, the damage is to all of the other gender diverse folk who get to see first hand that their acceptance is contingent on good behaviour, that their identity itself can be taken away by people as punishment. Their acceptance is no longer a right, but a privilege. And that shit does not fly. The harm of that is far worse than whatever harm an isolated troll can cause.

Don't gatekeep peoples identities. That's it. That's the rule. And everyone turning it in to something about "dragonfucking" or whatever other bullshit they are bringing in to it is distracting from the issue and causing the very harm I'm talking about, because ultimately, the rule is just "pronouns aren't a reward for good behaviour. End of story". Which means even shitty people and trolls get their pronouns respected and acknowledged, whilst they get banned and booted from the community.

And honestly, your comments have made this worse, because now, you, an admin of a remote instance, have made the discussion about whether "dragonfucking" is valid or not, making the conversation about when it's ok to gatekeep folk, instead of simply saying "don't gatekeep" alongside "ban trolls"

tl;dr - Gatekeepintg hurts us. You have just empowered the gatekeepers by telling them that sometimes it's ok to gatekeep. A move that hurts all gender diverse folk, not the trolls, and is ultimately the goal of some trolls.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The distinction is not useful, it's transphobic. They aren't "trying" to be "allies", they are doing the absolute bare minimum (if that). And as soon as their views are challenged even a tiny bit, they show how much of an "ally" they are (or lack thereof). If they don't extend their acceptance to include ALL identities they aren't an "ally", it's quite simple. Being an ally means putting in actual effort to accept, support, and defend trans creatures. ALL trans creatures. You are proving why this post is needed right now, I suggest you read it. "not sharing that perspective" is transphobia, full stop, and to say otherwise is to invalidate those trans identities and hence be transphobic. You doubling down on this after multiple trans creatures have pointed this out is disheartening and disappointing. Enjoy your cis privilege while us trans creatures get pushed out of spaces because you don't want to hurt transphobes feelings.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 23 hours ago)

It's incredibly disappointing to see you do the exact same thing as PugJesus, on the exact same post. Grow up. You bringing up being a cis gay man and how you've been attacked before, in response to having transphobic actions called out, is a stereotype that all trans people recognise, do you know that? Respectability politics is gross, take it back to your own instance.

Edit: I'll be sad to lose the piracy community, but this makes me feel like I need to use what little voice I have here on Blahaj to call for defederation. Unless @[email protected] can definitively say this isn't how your instance is run, but I'm not going to hold my breath considering their response to your comment locking that thread.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

echoing other comments just to add support but this is a yucky response,,,,, ick

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Thank you! It's been eye opening to see just how many of them there are active on lemmy :/

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I want to share the above person's comment regarding drag while locking that post:

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/15649022

As well, the post that user locked was not the main post, that was left unlocked for at least another 12 hours. There were two.

I didn't want to report this as I didn't want to face repercussion from moderators/admin on that instance.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 days ago (1 children)

thanks for being around, ada. the work you do is greatly appreciated, even if it’s not readily apparent all the time.

imo @MossyFeathers said it best in an edit they made to this comment, quoted for visibility:

the fucking entitlement of cis people telling trans people how to run their spaces is sickening. I thought Lemmy was supposed to be fairly progressive, yet once again I’m being shown that cis people believe they deserve a voice in something that has nothing to do with them. You don’t get to call yourself an ally when you question someone’s validity.

You disgust me.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Damn, it's really weird to see myself getting quoted in a completely different thread, lol. Tbh, I'm not sure I handled myself all that well; however, in my defense, I was really pissed off because it's no where near the first time I've seen people claim an identity was false, nor was it the first time I've seen someone treat pronouns like a reward for good behavior. I don't agree that using "gender" in the way drag was using it is the correct way of using it, it seems like using a hammer on a screw; however, that's not really for me to decide.

Drama subs are kind of a guilty pleasure for me, which was why I was there in the first place (also I browse all). At this point though, I've blocked pugjesus and I hope to never see their ass again. Probably gonna go back and block a bunch of the transphobes effectively saying that having your identity/pronouns respected are a privilege and not a right as well. What a bunch of gross, toxic individuals. It also makes me sad and disappointed. Lemmy used to be fun. It's not really fun anymore.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 22 hours ago

I definitely didn't handle myself well in response to this either, so please give yourself some grace. The amount of cis people who were trying to assert that disrespecting drag's identity was the right thing to do was huge and wildly disappointing. It's hard to call any of them allies. I've been blocking a bunch as well.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 4 days ago (1 children)

To be fair, pugjesus is an asshole about a lot of things, not just drag.

/s

I took a look and this is their normal behavior: just the topic du jour that they can use to whip up drama.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 4 days ago

Holy shit this thread has become a prime example of why we love you so much Ada, I've literally never seen a safer place on the internet before and I'm including my own community I run outside of lemmy.

Endlessly defending trans people and banning all those who refuse to accept basic rules, it's incredible although disturbing seeing how many transphobes have come out of the woodwork.

[–] [email protected] 52 points 5 days ago

i don't get why its so hard for people to use the block function and move on, i was sick of hearing about dragonfucker the second i saw dragonfucker crying victim in every thread on my feed. other comments have outlined my feelings on neopronouns so i wont get knto that

it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it, so i used the block function because it was exhausting to look at. shouldn't be more complicated than that

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

My only problem is when i use singular they them for someone and they have a problem with it. I speak hungarian natively which has no grammatical gender nor gendered pronouns and it makes so much more sense. The whole thing about gender neutral language doesnt exist. But what makes me mad is that other languages that have genders solved it while english is still messing around and every time i use singular they or dude/guy as gender neutral, someone with neopronouns or a right winger has to point out how im incorrect. This is of course not pointed at those who use neopronouns, just as someone who speaks a language where pronouns dont matter it feels kinda useless.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 days ago (4 children)

My problem is the intense amount of trolls and the harm that they've caused. Ive seen this instance devolve into trolls, counter trolls (trolls), alt accounts (trolls), mods (myself included) not being able to keep up, and admins not doing enough (imo).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

and admins not doing enough

perhaps there needs to be more admins or something dunno just a thought *cough*

[–] [email protected] 2 points 12 hours ago

I completely agree

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I'm in agreement with this, but I think people should complain about the trolling behavior and the abusive behavior, and not about the pronouns, because the trolling and abusive behavior is the real problem. Not people using different pronouns or having non-standard identities.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

The alternative, is a queer instance that is built from the ground up with gatekeeping baked in to its core. You may be ok with that. I am not. This instance will never be that.

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[–] [email protected] 49 points 5 days ago (5 children)

I don't care for neopronouns, but it also doesn't matter what I think. If it's REALLY a problem for me, like that person who's gender identity is divinity and the pronouns that person uses are capitalized, I just won't refer to that person. (Seriously, that does bother me, not that person's gender in general but referring to anyone, fictional or not, Like This.)

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[–] [email protected] 49 points 5 days ago (25 children)

My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren't genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general. Kind of an extension of the "one joke" conservatives have ("hurr durr, I identify as an attack helicopter").

Obviously I can't say for sure that's what is happening, but I've read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn't being genuine.

I personally err on the side of caution, so I'd never purposely insult this person by calling them "him" or "her," but they'll remain a "they" to me, as that is still gender-agnostic not offensive to someone with "neopronouns" (as far as I understand it).

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 4 days ago (6 children)

I've spent what feels like half an hour scrolling through comment threads to figure out what the hell happened to lead to this. Is there some kind of explainer somewhere? Is there a key thread that I missed somehow? Should I even be asking?

[–] [email protected] 64 points 4 days ago (17 children)

There's a user called dragonfucker whose gender is apparently "dragonfucker", who insists on the neopronoun "drag", and who eagerly takes offense whenever misgendered, whether the misgendering was intentional or not. Some people understandably believe this user is a troll.

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