this post was submitted on 06 Nov 2024
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Where to go from here? (pawb.social)
submitted 2 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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The US seems to turn red. While I am living in Europe I am already wondering where I should go. Is there somewhere in this world where being LGBTQ is not a constant battle and where it will likely stay that way? Because typically the insanity coming from the US swaps over to EU and many states here are already on their way to fascism on their own.

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[–] [email protected] 44 points 1 day ago

There is no safe country. There are countries that are safer than others but especially in the West, nationalism and fascism are on the rise and queer people will (and already are) falling victim to it.

The best way to prepare is to seek a strong queer community, and volunteer to help it stay strong and healthy. Even under a fascist government you can be happy, you must only find the right people to surround yourself with. Humans are resilient, and especially queer people (especially queer ethnic minorities and queer people of colour) have lots of experience with surviving under repression.

While you’re at it, join a workers union too because workers rights are just as fragile as queer rights.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

I'm European and I've been wondering this myself. Spain looks solid, maybe? Definitely don't go to Germany (where I live), we're on track to elect a guy in 2025 who loves the Republicans, and there's several popular parties that are extremely Russia-friendly and hate LGBT+. And even the current centrist government is engaging in hostile rethoric against "migrants".

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I'm not American or European, but my country likes to follow whatever America does and our far-right has in the past tried to get their help to stage a coup, so I'm worried about this as well - they couldn't get Biden's support, but they are buddies with Trump and he is more than happy to assist. I'm pretty sure my country is going to follow the US and throw itself off a cliff in two years, and I really hope I have an emergency escape hatch come 2026-2027...

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

This is obviously not that feasible, but if you have the money (and the energy to learn Chinese), you could move to Taiwan. The first in Asia to legalize same-sex marriage. Discrimination based on sexual orientation is constitutionally prohibited.

This Wikipedia page might be helpful to you on your journey to a place with better LGBTQ rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_rights_by_country_or_territory

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 day ago

I wouldn't trust Trump to uphold the U.S.'s traditional military commitments to Taiwan. Living through the Chinese invasion wouldn't be fun, and afterwards you're looking at Chinese rather than Taiwanese policies.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The sad truth is that there is no way to say right now. I believe, even if by basic statistical probability, that there will be some European nations that are able to avoid sliding to fascism in the coming decade. It's definitely not going to be Italy, and I'm pretty confident it won't be the Netherlands. I really can't imagine a country like France going to fascism, but then Le Pen keeps growing in popularity so who knows.

The point is, it can happen anywhere and can succeed anywhere. The only thing you can do right now is try to prevent it from winning in your country. If that fails, hopefully there'll be a confirmed safe haven then.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The sad truth is that there is no way to say right now.

None you're allowed to, anyway.

Nobody has any delusions about how we got rid of Hitler.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Okay, what country has decided to militarize against their growing fascist threat?

You can talk about bashin' fashes all you want, but nobody is doing it right now. I really thought it would be France or Germany, but both have growing far-right populist parties. Hell, just find me a single European country that does not have a far-right populist party that is currently growing in popularity.

If the question is "Where can I move right now that will be safe for the next decade," the answer is "It is unknowable."

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You can talk about bashin’ fashes all you want, but nobody is doing it right now.

One guy tried.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago

Technically two I guess, though one of them was just a shitty kid looking for 15 seconds of fame. I'm not gonna tell you no, but maybe make sure you follow through if you try, because Vance is just as bad if not worse.

Also, not helpful for someone who wants safety. Go stoke a revolution on a different post.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 days ago (3 children)

I'd say most north eastern EU countries (Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, most of Scandinavia) is safe right now. The Netherlands (where I live) has been right-leaning for a while now and even though it got worse this past election the focus is mainly on nationallism and anti-immigrant policies at the moment.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 days ago (1 children)

As far as a can tell, Germany and Sweden are undergoing similar shifts to the right as the Netherlands.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago

Calling it a shift isn't accurate at least for sweden, i'd more say that the right has become more extreme.
To the point that even other right wingers keep having to tell the far right party to knock it down a peg, or just straight up fuck off.

The social democrats have sat quite stably at above 30% of the votes for a long while now, and nowadays the 4th largest party is the Left Party which is explicitly socialist.
And in the EU elections the Greens got third place, over the far right party.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 days ago

That’s how it is in Sweden as well. There’s this far right nationalist party, which is a concern, but at least they don’t seem to be super concerned with LGBTQ+ (yet).

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 days ago

That last bit sounds like a bold “yet”, to be honest.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Could you maybe share in which area in the EU where you live? Obviously not the specific location, the general area might be helpful.

I feel that there are certainly countries in the EU where being queer is perfectly fine. (I'm from Germany, so ye)

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I am from Germany as well. And I agree right now it is okay. But we are on a downwards trend (just this week a queer bar has been set ablaze). And when I look towards the next election I fear that this downward trend could go get even worse.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Right, I kinda forgot that.

AFD and CDU really are a thing, arent't they.

But I think that the community here is too strong to back down now. Germany has been very open and encouraging towards queer people. I'm assuming that most of the voters for these parties are older, but I have also heard that many youthy people voted for AFD, which is still very surprising to me. I am genuinely interested what they see in these parties. Or more generally: What about rightish parties is appealing? Is it just aw yeah, punk, we go against the grain! or something else?

The Netherlands are also an interesting place for me, they seem to be a rather social country and I like the way they handle energy and piracy.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

A big factor is probably that the AfD has an actual large tiktok presence, and if that's where all the zoomers are, many are bound to fall into that echo chamber. It's the same thing people see in assholes like Andrew Tate.

I saw some AfD tiktok clip that literally said "Echte Männer sind rechts. Echte Männer wählen AfD." Felt like it should've been a parody. But apparently that's effective.

I really do think that actually making organic seeming tiktok content (as opposed to obviously awkward content where the politician barely gets whats going on) would help against the radicalization of the youth.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

AFD and CDU really are a thing, arent’t they.

BSW is also hostile to LGBT+ - they're not as open about it, but e.g. the issue with the rainbow flag in Neubrandenburg shows they're certainly no friend of the queer community.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Right, I also completely forgot BSW exists... But I guess it makes sense that they'd be hostile towards queer people, since old people vote for em and that's probably what most BSW voters would like to happen

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago

It also makes sense because BSW is quite clearly a Putin-proxy.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Some other info that would make it easier to help as well: OP, are you looking for accessible gender affirming care and name changes, etc? Or is it about feeling safe within the community as an openly/visibly queer person?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It is mostly about feeling safe with my chosen family and being able to actually plan a life. As of now I see basically no point in planning any part of my future as it feels as if any plan I could make could be disrupted at any moment.

I know this is a hard ask, since no one can see into the future. It is essentially a question that should not exist. Where do I go and can actually live 50-60 years without the fear of getting killed by an angry mob at some point? Where do I go where this question is not part of the equation?

Ideally that country also should still exist, as climate change will swallow some countries as well.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

In that case, it's less about the country, and more about how large and diverse the specific city is. I live in Austria, which is super conservative and Catholic, but Vienna is, as far as I can tell, a great place for what you described. I'm sure the same exists within many other countries as well.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago

I am keeping my eyes on the Netherlands and Malta. The Netherlands shifted right but this might be temporary or they allign more centre. Don't know anything really. But probably I will relocate in Germany to a left leaning city.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago (2 children)

France it should be good

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 day ago

France teeters on electing Le Pen every fucking cycle

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

But it's full of French!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

Yeah I know that's the cool part of it ^^

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Australia?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago

As a trans femme Victorian (Australian state), I would agree with this. Preferential voting helps stop the worst of fascism's rise in Aus. The majority of people in the big cities couldn't give a fuck if you're trans. There are areas that are still not very safe, but they are known constants that can be avoided, and are ticking slowly towards acceptance. Progress isn't always linear, but there's not a snowflakes chance in hell that we backslide as far as the US has. It was even a right-wing government that passed same-sex marriage laws here.

However, I will note strongly that we still have a lot of issues with racism in this country.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Gay, traight, trans, we don't care as long as you can:

  • Pick fruit
  • Shear sheep
  • Operate a 60 ton Komatsu in a Pilbara open pit mine

And preferably do it in 40 degree heat.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago

"Alright, kids, today we’re gonna learn how to operate a 60-tonne Komatsu. Bobby, stop digging for gold and pay attention – this is pretty bloody important."