this post was submitted on 16 May 2024
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[–] [email protected] 165 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

“People think that when you’re mentally ill, you can’t think straight, which is insulting,” she told the Guardian. “I understand the fears that some disabled people have about assisted dying, and worries about people being under pressure to die... But in the Netherlands, we’ve had this law for more than 20 years. There are really strict rules, and it’s really safe.”

She embarked on intensive treatments, including talking therapies, medication and more than 30 sessions of electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). “In therapy, I learned a lot about myself and coping mechanisms, but it didn’t fix the main issues. At the beginning of treatment, you start out hopeful. I thought I’d get better. But the longer the treatment goes on, you start losing hope.”

After 10 years, there was “nothing left” in terms of treatment. "I’ve never hesitated about my decision. I have felt guilt – I have a partner, family, friends and I’m not blind to their pain. And I’ve felt scared. But I’m absolutely determined to go through with it.

Honestly and genuinely, I'm glad to see all that she has put into this decision and glad the state is allowing it. Now she doesn't need to cause further pain to others through a traumatic suicide and she can gain the peace she's been longing for.

Each day, so many lives are snuffed out of existence without a second thought. She has given this an incredible amount of thought, time, and work.

Rest in peace, Zoraya. 💜

P. S. There's thousands of live today that want to live. They don't want to die. And yet their lives are taken away in an instant. Perhaps we should focus on saving them rather than making someone like Zoraya feel even worse.

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[–] [email protected] 95 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (26 children)

I can't understand why so many people are against someone dying with dignity. This is a form of harm reduction for not just the patient, but also their loved ones, and society in general.

Nobody wants to see their loved ones suffer endlessly or needlessly, and this is also a whole lot less traumatic than people committing suicide. Nobody wants the last memory of their loved ones to be the scene of their (potentially messy) suicide.

And that's not to mention the trauma inflicted on bystanders for some of the more public suicide methods (not to mention that jumping to your death or intentionally walking into/driving into traffic has a decent chance of physically injuring or killing said bystanders).

If this process is undertaken with care and compassion, it's far less likely to be traumatizing to all involved. And it prevents "spur of the moment" decisions, like many successful suicides are.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 months ago (2 children)

You don’t want people jumping in front of a train, but what do you think would happen if this concept were fully embraced by the American for-profit insurance industry? I’m imagining taking my mom to a doctor’s appointment for an expensive treatment and finding tasteful brochures for dying with dignity helpfully placed around the office.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I'm absolutely worried this will get taken advantage of in the US' hellscape that is their healthcare system, but that doesn't mean the concept is without merit.

It's like arguing that cars should not be available for purchase because someone might use one irresponsibly, while forgetting their utility outside of abuse.

In a healthcare system that optimizes outcome instead of profit, having the option to allow someone to choose to end their suffering should not be considered a bad thing.

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[–] [email protected] 56 points 5 months ago (5 children)

Imagine thinking your life belongs to you, and then having to get permission to end it without suffering

[–] [email protected] 34 points 5 months ago

There are other options other than this one that requires permission. The article mentions her reasons to choose this method.

From the article:

She had thought about taking her own life but the violent death by suicide of a schoolfriend and its impact on the girl’s family deterred her.

Whether we agree with her or not, it's her decision.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 5 months ago (1 children)

You're asking someone else to take your life and expect them to do so no questions asked...?

[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago (2 children)

There are in fact many questions asked, and any doctor can refuse for any reason.

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[–] [email protected] 53 points 5 months ago (8 children)

This is the best "treatment" a capitalist shithole can give for mental health.

We live in a dystopia

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[–] [email protected] 48 points 5 months ago (11 children)

This. Is. Awesome.

Good on her; for doing whatever was reasonable. For making an informed decision. For following the approved methods. And for sticking it out.

We "put down" pets when their suffering is too much, why can't we let people make that same decision for themselves? Luckily the Dutch can.

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[–] [email protected] 46 points 5 months ago

I disagree with her decision for a few reasons but I’ll defend her right to choose.

There are always going to be people who don’t want to be here anymore for whatever reason, and so the government needs to provide a humane way of dealing with these situations.

Like with abortion, access to controlled procedures with trained professionals reduces harm. Restricting access to safe procedures will cause more harm than it prevents.

Definitely sad. Possibly the wrong choice for her, possibly the right choice, but it’s her choice to make despite how I might feel about it.

[–] [email protected] 38 points 5 months ago

Unsolicited Conservative: "Has she tried to put God on that wound? If only she was religious..."

Dude, doctors will even try homeopathy before resorting to euthanasia.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

Idk, i am torn on this. Obviously people have had depression with suicidal tendencies since the dawn of humanity, but i feel like most modern suicides come from the failings of oir current systems. I am Zoraya's age and have struggled with depression and finding a reason to live for well over a decade. Euthanisia should be available to anyone with a terminal condition, but she still has her whole lofe ahead of her. It saddens me that the state has decided it is better to let her have a painless suicide rather than address the issues that make her life no longer worth living. To me there is no excuse for otherwise healthy adults in the prime of their lives to feel hopeless, but that is the society we have collectively decided we want to live in.

I'm glad she will be able to die on her own terms, but there is no excuse for this to be her only option. Our society has failed Zoraya and countless people like her.

I have no doubts about her sincerity to die. I just think that a better society would have been able to find her a reason to live. She is absolutely in the right here, and has done nothing wrong. It's her government which has failed her.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 5 months ago (6 children)

Why are you assuming that her mental situation developed as a result of society or "the government"? The article mentions that her conditions are chronic and started developing in early childhood. People can have mental conditions without any particular external trigger.

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I feel like a lot of replies here have the same "every live is precious and needs to be protected at all costs"-vibe as you get with a lot of anti-abortion arguments.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (22 children)

You are casually ceding the "not wanting people to kill themselves" ground to the right while also allowing them to paint themselves as caring about human lives when in reality they just want to control women's bodies and protect fetuses, not people.

"Every life is valuable" is obviously a left-wing stance because the left are the ones who actually care about people's lives, even when they're disabled, downtrodden, and painted as burdens on society.

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Goodbye Zoraya ter Beek, and never stop fighting!

Also the utter disrespect on social media, flooding her accounts with stupid Messages.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 5 months ago

Actually her fight is over, that's the entire point

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Death is permanent and cannot be undone. Once someone dies they take all their love, potential and beauty with them. We can only live with the memory of it, but that memory doesn’t have the ability to create new things or react to life in new ways.

That said, people should be able to end their suffering in a dignified manner of their choosing without suffering more. No one asked to be alive, it’s a burden imposed on them by the will of the living. The least we can do, then, is to make living as devoid of suffering as we can for everyone.

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[–] [email protected] 27 points 5 months ago (1 children)

On the appointed day, the medical team will come to Ter Beek’s house. “They’ll start by giving me a sedative, and won’t give me the drugs that stop my heart until I’m in a coma. For me, it will be like falling asleep. My partner will be there, but I’ve told him it’s OK if he needs to leave the room before the moment of death,” she said.

this struck me as a bit odd. In switzerland they cannot „act“, they can only prepare the drugs etc, but you have to do the final act by yourself, otherwise its considered murder.

interesting that they handle it differently

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[–] [email protected] 27 points 5 months ago

I would never take that right away from someone, but I'm very sad nothing else worked for her. 29 just feels so young to have to exit, so many chances for experiences left.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 5 months ago
[–] [email protected] 24 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Let people be free.
And healthcare is for everyone. The means are healthcare in this case. And social & cultural support helps.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 5 months ago

I’m glad she will be able to end her suffering painlessly.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 5 months ago

The world we live in, where this news travels all over the globe, and we get to argue about the death of a girl on the internet.

Funny times, to say the least.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 5 months ago (1 children)

“People think that when you’re mentally ill, you can’t think straight, which is insulting,” she told the Guardian.

So much this. I've had so many people tell me that when I tell them that I don't see a way into the future and I want them to leave me the fuck alone, it actually means that I want more help. No, you donkey, it doesn't. It means leave me alone.

Bonus points when they are coming up with "ideas for my future" that are just genuinely unappealing to me and are then livid when I say no. Do they really think that going on a vacation or changing my job was not something I already thought about and discarded because I know it would not help? Nah, I'm ill, so I also must be stupid. "You always just say no. I am trying to help and you always just say no." Thanks for realizing that you are not helping me but just want to feel good about yourself.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I don't know about your personal situation, and it may be different for whatever you are suffering with, however the part you quoted is true for a lot of cases.

Having just looked after my wife through a period of ~3 years really severe depression I've seen it first hand, it completely changed her personality and outlook and she was saying all kinds of stuff she's quite embarrassed by now. She genuinely couldn't think straight at all or see any way out, and in that moment if offered the choice to die she might have taken it (a fact she is quite scared by now, having mostly recovered).

Similar story with my brother, who has bipolar... when he's manic he has an absolute inability to hold a train of thoughts together for longer than 30 seconds. When he's depressed it's absolutely awful. He's now stable and enjoying his life.

I'm not arguing that this shouldn't be an option for some very extreme chronic conditions, but it's obviously complicated.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 5 months ago

Maybe if the medical industrial complex surrounding mental health wasn't so profit-hungry and dehumanising, then she might not think that death is an option that she needs to take.

[–] HobbitFoot 16 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I hope she finds the peace she didn't have in life.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 5 months ago (18 children)

If you die, there is no peace to find … there is nothing.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 5 months ago

And that's perhaps the most peaceful peace. A‌ peace only nothingness can bring.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

"Nothing" is peace for some people.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago (3 children)

What leads someone in her situation to decide to go down the euthanasia route rather than regular suicide which doesn't need any approval?

It's a morbid thought but euthanasia approval seems like it could often be a slow drawn out process, and someone able-bodied wouldn't necessarily need it.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 5 months ago (1 children)
  1. making someone else do it because although you want it done, you can't bring yourself to do it when the time comes

  2. making someone else do it because you don't want to fuck it up and deal with the rather significant aftermath after waking up 3 hours later with only a pumped stomach

[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Plus, gathering from comments about the article cuz I'm lazy, but I gather (and empathize) there's the added benefit of giving any loved ones time to prepare and say their goodbyes without potentially traumatizing anyone that might find you after

Quick edit someone else commented the same thing literally right below 😶‍🌫️

[–] [email protected] 22 points 5 months ago

For me I don't want someone to have to find me and deal with the aftermath. I'd much rather it be a planned thing so no one else has to suffer just because I needed to end it all. Unfortunately I'm in a country where that's not possible so when the time comes I need to go deep into a forest or something.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 5 months ago (2 children)

This is mentioned in the article. She chose euthanasia because someone she knew growing up committed suicide and she saw how it devastated the family.

Also I imagine the anxiety about messing up without professional expertise would be awful. Plus worrying about legal repercussions for any assistance. Etc. etc.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I've been in and out of therapy and on and off meds for 32 years, nothing has helped, I wish this was an option. God speed to her.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

It’s her choice what can we really do? It’s tragic but because it is so visible while many others are in this position without such visibility.

I pray I never experience this state of things however at the same time I know I will sooner or later. I sometimes approach the state of insufferable mental torture however it is never permanent or hopeless but I have some tiny glimpse to understand her decision.

The choice of how one exits life is the last bastion of power the living have.

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