60
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2023
60 points (100.0% liked)
askchapo
23022 readers
178 users here now
Ask Hexbear is the place to ask and answer ~~thought-provoking~~ questions.
Rules:
-
Posts must ask a question.
-
If the question asked is serious, answer seriously.
-
Questions where you want to learn more about socialism are allowed, but questions in bad faith are not.
-
Try [email protected] if you're having questions about regarding moderation, site policy, the site itself, development, volunteering or the mod team.
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
To explore your tangent a little more, I'd say that Western and Chinese territorial expansionism is more different than alike, precisely for the examples you've cited.
Viewing cultures in reductive civilizational cliches is not a rigorous mode of analysis, but it is worth drawing a few points from. The Qing and Yuan phases of expansion are in direct contrast with the remarkable lack of relative expansion under the so-called "Han Chinese" dynasties. Those two dynasties were established under conquest and actively contextualized their reign as one of triumphal subjugation over the general population and majority culture. Operating under that mode of cultural belief allows a more assertive geopolitical posture compared to the more passive foreign policy philosophies of the "traditional" dynasties.
The example of the Imjin War between Ming China and Korea vs Japan is a good example, because it establishes the stakes involved in clarifying this. Some scholars in South Korea (though not the consensus view, as far as I'm aware) who operate from an adversarial basis towards the entire Chinese presence in Korean history see the war as a fight for Korea's independence against not just Japan, but also Korea's Ming ally, who "actually wanted to annex Korea while they were there supporting Korea." Thus, Korea fought off not just Japan's hard takeover but also the Ming "soft takeover." K.M Swope's "A Dragon’s Head and a Serpent’s Tail: Ming China and the First Great East Asian War, 1592-1598" shows how this view is completely unfactual. The Ming were certainly frustrated at the military inefficiency of lacking direct control in Korea while conducting the defence against Japan, but they were never interested in annexing Korea as a result of this.
The real reason for this allegation is that those scholars simply aren't capable, through their Hobbesian cynicism, of conceiving a foreign policy relationship that isn't based on an agenda of conquest and eventual annexation in the style of European imperialism. As such, they see shadows of European settler-colonialism everywhere in history, even when the evidence isn't there. By this, their motive is to essentially whitewash the genocidal European mentality that brought about the past 500 years of global trauma by saying that "Europe just simply got to it first, everyone else would have done it as well in the same position."
I call this the "You would have been a Holocaust supporter if you lived in Nazi Germany" cultural relativism-fetishist argument you used to see all the time on Reddit, which forgets through its assumption that, no, not everyone is a hetero-normative White Christian and most people in the world would have been thrown into the camps if they were somehow transported to Nazi Germany.
Nevertheless, a rejection of that mode of conduct is how China historically behaved by-and-large under the "traditional" dynasties and how modern China aims to be.
I would add that through this, the parallels between the "Ming takeover" allegation and the modern propaganda against China's BRI could not be more plain. The argumentation is basically the same. "Sure, those countries may be right to resist the Western/IMF neocolonialist 'hard takeovers,' but they also have to watch out for China's aid 'soft takeovers' too."