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this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2023
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Lemmy: "NO ONE SHOULD BE A BILLIONAIRE" also Lemmy: "1 billion dollars is a fair punishment for saying stupid shit"
Those are very different things...
nobody in particular is getting a billion dollars from lawsuits against jones, because there are so many people suing him. hopefully his operation is just eroded into obscurity and then we have to hear from the next ten dozen idiots who will take his place. it's the knowledge fight, baby.
No single defamation case against an individual should have 1 billion dollars in damages. If this was anyone other than a widely hated political actor people would rightfully say that its an excessive amount.
jones did this to himself.
You could say that about anyone. There is not a world in which 1b in damages from defamation against a private individual makes sense.
I guess the question is, how much money did Jones and his company make from said defamation. Personally I think if a company profits illegally then the fine should be at a minimum a close estimation of what they profited.
Sure, totally fine, that would be pretty typical. But we all know it was not 1b dollars.
Maybe the death threats from his fans and having to go into hiding because of his rhetoric bumped up price. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I'm sure there were many parents in the jury that have had enough of the bullshit.
Death threats are illegal, but Alex Jones did not make the death threats. Does he share some responsibility? probably. But he was not the one making death threats and did not instruct his followers to make them. That changes it from "intent" to just being irresponsible.
Surely you followed the trials, since you have an opinion. Jones had so many opportunities to make that case, and didn't. Stalling, lying, and fighting with the courts did not work out well for him. Calling the judge names outside of court and denying everything also did not work for him.
Reviewing the income statements and the effects it had on everyone's lives, the jurors came up with a number that was the sum. In two different cases as well.
It is not as cut and dry as "he shouldn't be punished, and this was too much"
it's not clear what you are arguing for. the fines and judgments against Jones are payable. he has assets. he's just a baby.
He does not have 1b.
No, he is not. He is a grifter, that exploits peoples fears for money. He also happens to have a decent amount of hate coupled with a stunted maturity, which makes for finding an easy audience to grift.
I heal what you are saying, but there is no retaliation, no punishment. This is a civil matter, he choose to get himself into this mess by not even trying to get out of it, and now this is the restitution that his peers have found him liable for.
Cruel and unusual is what he did by lying about people to create the fear solely for profit. There is no libertarian angle, no news story. It is simply he is willing to hurt others for money.
you tell it brother sister
Civil courts are not meant to use their ability to charge damages as a form of lifelong punishment.
Conservative estimates put his companies earnings at 300 million a year. So ya I'd say it was pretty close since he went on about it for quite awhile. Also don't forget that during the lawsuit he hid money, lied in court, hid evidence and even refused to show up to court. I think his punishment is more than fitting. This guy knowingly lied about families who were devastated to make money, affecting those families lives to the point that they had to move and go into hiding. Fuck Alex Jones, he's a shit human being and I hope he spends the rest of his life mopping restrooms in a truck stop somewhere.
I find it very hard to believe he was earning 300m a year in profit. I would like a source on that.
Civil courts are not in the business of handing out punishments btw. Once again proving my point that you hate the guy so much that you overlook the abuse of the civil court system to put him in debt for life through a completely irrationally outsized amount of damages.
This one shows his companies net worth https://apnews.com/article/alex-jones-sandy-hook-shooting-bankruptcy-0d127381842dde05e7753870463e338e
This one shows his companies estimated earnings per year based off an email he tried to hide from the courts. https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1115414563/alex-jones-sandy-hook-case
if you read the article, they are extrapolating a single day over a year, despite it being said that the day was "the best day of sales". So no, they are not making 300m a year. It's extremely misleading to claim that he was earning 300m a year in profit from that one statement.
If you read the article Alex Jones claimed it was the best day of sales. It is extremely misleading to claim also that one day of sales is the only information that would be used to determine how much money a company makes. The email was used to contradict the claims that Infowars and his other companies are barely getting by and that's why he had to file bankruptcy.
Alex Jones started hiding money, refused to provide company documents to the courts and skipped trials. If his account of his finances is closer to the truth then why did he not provide that evidence. Hey, if you just want to take the word of a proven liar that your prerogative and if Alex Jones wanted to prove that his companies only make what he says that they make them he could have easily provided that evidence. Better yet even if his companies only make twenty million a year maybe he should have realized a lot sooner to shut his mouth when he realized his words were ruining people's lives and potentially putting them in danger because his followers were confronting these poor people. Instead of stopping when Alex realized this he threw more gas on the fire. Of course this is only one instance of this happening, there are many examples of his lies causing harm because his followers believe him.
You are deflecting from what I am criticizing you for. You said 300m a year was a "conservative" estimate when in reality it's an extremely optimistic (and wrongly based off of a single day extrapolated) estimate. Just admit it was misleading and we can move on.
You have 0 proof that it is conservative, you are basing that on the word of a proven liar. That figure in particular could easily be an average day figure or a slow day.
I'm not sure what I'm deflecting because all of your proof is taken from the word of a proven liar and fraud. Just admit you're a troll and we can move on
You are the one claiming it was conservative, not me. And considering you based it off of a single day that was notably one of the best days, yes it is misinformation to claim that 300m is a conservative estimate. Read the fucking article you got your info from, I'm not taking jones at his word. I'm looking at the source you provided and based your info off of. Read your own posts buddy
It was not just one lawsuit, I believe that may be the combined total of all the lawsuits to date. Rest assured though the judge said his fake bankruptcy may cover the 324 million in lawyers fees.
this one lawsuit is responsible for 965m, which is pretty much 1 billion.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/jury-begins-third-day-deliberations-alex-jones-sandy-hook-defamation-trial-2022-10-12/
He's not paying 1billion for a single defamation case. For one thing that's the sum of multiple cases against him, and the more significant thing is that he lost because he did not fight it through the legal process and got a default judgement entered against him, and the most significant thing is that this amount is awarded due to punitive damages.
The amount is not simply meant to compensate the aggrieved party. That would have been capped to a much smaller amount. However because of a continuous series of intentional deceit and fraudulent actions during the lawsuit itself, punitive damages were awarded instead, where the point is to set an example against such behavior in court cases.
That extra punishment is for the benefit of the legal system rather than the aggrieved, it was something he could have simply avoided by just fighting the court case through the normal legal process. He would have simply lost and would only have had to pay a fraction of that amount.
The point of the ability to punish subversion of the legal process is that otherwise, no legal consequence for ignoring the court, would mean that anyone could completely ignore the legal process (which is what he was attempting to do).
https://www.reuters.com/legal/jury-begins-third-day-deliberations-alex-jones-sandy-hook-defamation-trial-2022-10-12/ this seems to imply it was 965m in one case, which is close enough to a billion to say it is.
Multiple plaintiffs in a single case, similar to a class action. I think OPs point still stands.
The original post said:
It was still a single case, ruled by a single judge. It's much different than many different cases adding like like was suggested. One case, 1b in damages.
Huh? Is that relatable in your head? That explains some things.
I bet it'd be less "stupid shit" if you were on the receiving end of his terror campaign, receiving constant death threats and harassments by his fans, all of whom claiming that your dead child never existed and to stop lying and fake crying.
I think punishments should be realistic and not make a man pay 1 billion fucking dollars because he said something stupid. Take the money he made from such statements, with maybe a little bit more on as punishment. There is no world in which a 1.1b amount makes sense. The only purpose is to put him in debt for his entire life, and since this is a political hot button issue people will cheer it along.
If you were the one who actually killed the kids you would have a lower damages value.
Yes, lets all cry tears of sorrow for the poor persecuted Alex Jones.
How dare he be subject to the find out after spending so long fucking around.
I'm advocating for reasonable punishments for crimes rather than a small nation's gdp in damages because he is politically controversial. I think we can all agree that courts should not be handing out unfathomably large punishments in civil cases just because the person is politically unpopular.
The dude has enough resources to casually spend more money in a month than most of us make in multiple years, he got those resources by deliberately and knowingly telling lies that ruined the lives of multiple grieving families, he took a giant shit on the entire judicial system by refusing to appear for multiple hearings and repeatedly telling bald-faced lies to the court, and then he handed direct evidence of those bald-faced lies to opposing counsel and let them use it in court. If there's anyone who deserves life-ruining punishment, it's this shithead.
He does not have 1b dollars, don't be ridiculous. And don't pretend he made all his money from sandy hook conspiracies either. Journalists tell lies all the time, and they're never hit with 1b in damages
This is what we call a soft hand conservative.
not screaming bloody murder about killing their political rivals and calling everyone groomers.
But trying to sound sane and reasonable, but still dropping gems that reveal their true intentions and nature like
and demanding sympathy for poor, mistreated alex jones and how its a miscarriage of the justice system for him to lose the empire built on lies, misinformation, conspiracy theories, and fake medical products, and using that to incite violence and harassment against others, all because of his own actions, that he chose to take.
Bet if this was Rachael Maddow he wouldnt be wringing his hands so hard over it.
You guys pathologize normal opinions a lot of people have way too much. There were journalists that created entire false narratives around the Iraq war, which is almost certainly of much bigger negative effect on the world than Alex Jones saying some retarded conspiracy shit.
Yes, it was the big bad evil journalists that lied.
Not Bush.
not Colin Powell
Not Donald Rumsfeld.
You realize there is a world in which many different people are liable, right?
Between all the shit he's hidden in various shell corporations and offshore bank accounts, I wouldn't be surprised if he did have a billion dollars.
Besides, people get hit with fines that far exceed their ability to pay ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Grandmas were getting hit with 6-figure judgements back in the early 2010s before the RIAA figured out that suing random individuals for music piracy was bad publicity. Nintendo got a $10 million settlement and $4.5 million criminal fine from one guy selling devices to hack the Switch.
But once, just once, a fine is high enough to fuck over a rich guy after he did literally everything wrong and invented a few new ways to fuck up, and suddenly it's "Ohhhhhh no, this is a MISCARRIAGE OF JUSTICE, how DARE the courts hold a rich man accountable for their actions, why won't anyone think of the poor, oppressed rich guy ruining people's lives so he can hawk fake diet pills?" Cry me a fucking river.
Don't you think it's fucked up that it happens at all? But suddenly it's fine when it's against someone you hate?