this post was submitted on 17 Sep 2023
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Nazis are in Ukraine, and Nazis are bad people that should be stopped.
Russia is using this as an excuse for a shameless land grab.
These are not mutually exclusive statements.
IMO, it really wouldn't be all that different to the US using the cartels as an excuse to invade Mexico and slurp up some new land. And yeah, I'm aware that Republicans are already talking about it, because they just can't stop themselves from any% speedrunning the worst takes possible. To be completely frank, I wonder if Russia would keep giving a shit about the Nazis once they've taken the land. IIRC, like basically everyone else right now, Russia itself has an embarrassingly bad Nazi problem, so maybe Russia will invade Russia next.
I don’t want to put a bunch of preludes and explain myself etc.
But man, you really think Russia invaded because of a “land grab”? Does that make any sense to you?
The Russian Federation, famously short on land
To be somewhat fair, all of Russia's claims in Ukraine (Crimea, the Donbas) would give them unparalleled access to the Sea of Azov and the northern banks of the Black Sea. Yes, I know they control a significant portion of the Black Sea already, but this would allow them to wrap the Sea of Azov nicely.
I know Russia states they're there to kick the Nazis out of the Donbas and protect the Russian language minority in that region, but I also don't believe any nation, especially a very nationalistic, neoliberal government like Russia's, is out doing something out of the goodness of their hearts. Call me a cynic, but I think the expanded Black Sea control is more important to the government.
I see the expanded Black Sea control as a way to sure up control of Crimea. If they didn't then the only physical connection between Crimea and the rest of Russia would be the bridge, which has shown to be quite vulnerable.
It's literally just to stop NATO expansion, protecting Russian speakers in Ukraine is just an incidental political benefit
The "warm port" and "land grab" theories are pure nonsense that ignore the last 8 years of Eastern European history
Yes.
It's much more complex than this. One must understand the civil war, NATO expansion, as well as the cultural difference between Lviv, and Donbass/Luhask. With Kyiv kind of caught in the middle politically between them. Most importantly one must understand All of the things NATO could have done to prevent this.
Lviv was part of Poland. It became part of Ukraine when Germany/USSR both invaded Poland in 1939. It was historically Polish. Today Lviv is actually a hotbed of nazi apologia. Most of the monuments to nazi collaborators like Bandera and Stetsko are in Lviv. Many of the right wing militias are active in Lviv. Donbass Luhask was historically part of Russia, not part of Ukraine. During the early soviet period Lenin incorporated Donbass/Luhask into the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (rather than making it part of the Russian part of the USSR). During the soviet period this was fine, but after the Soviet union collapsed, and Ukraine SSR became Ukraine, the white supremacists and nazis (Groups like C14, Right Sektor, Azov Battalion, and their predecessors like the Social-National Party of Ukraine) began to push for policies against Roma, Jews, and ethnic Russians. This meant a lot of ethnic tensions with Donbass/Luhask which has a lot of people who speak Russian, as well as Roma and Jews. This led to separatist movements in Donbass/Luhask/Crimea. People in those regions who speak Russian and identify as Russian, and before Lenin, were part of the Russia rather than Ukraine, felt like they would be safer with their own Republics, or in Russia, than they would be in Ukraine. Crimea held a referendum to become part of Russia in 2014. This received over 90% support. NATO/Ukraine media said it was a rigged vote. Russian media said it wasn't. Russia then occupied Crimea to nominally enforce the referendum. This was called a land grab by NATO, it was called democratic support of a referendum by Russia. This kicked off separatist movements in Donbass/Luhask. The Ukrainian government then started a civil war against Donbass/Luhask to keep these territories as part of Ukraine. Donbass declared their own republic and so did Luhask. The Ukrainian Armed Forces committed a massacre in a trade union hall in Odessa 2014, burning a lot of separatists alive. They also began shelling separatist regions. There were a lot of civilian deaths, and Ukrainian right began to further radicalize, while receiving money/weapons/training through the NED (a CIA front) The civil war went on for 8 years.
In 2014, you also had what many believed to be a US-backed coup that put Petro Poroshenko into power. Petro Poroshenko rehabilitated a lot of the nazi collaborators from WW2, granting them hero status, and allowing more monuments to be built to them. He also cozied up with the radical right wing militias and incorporated them into the regular armed forces. He also advocated Ukraine joining NATO. Ukraine joining NATO was always Russia's "red line" since Ukraine shares a border close to Moscow, and NATO membership means the USA can build military bases in your country, train your troops, put nuclear weapons in your country, etc. Russia doesn't want American nukes right on the doorestep of its capital, and so finally, after 30 years of eastward NATO expansion, resolved to intervene in the Ukrainian civil war, to make weaken Ukraine, and make it more of a burden for NATO. This is why NATO hasn't allowed Ukraine to become a member.
There's also the matter of NATO expansion in general. Informal promises were made to Gorbachev in 1991 (which were declassified by the British much later) that NATO wouldn't expand eastward if he dissolved the USSR and the Warsaw pact. He did so. But NATO kept expanding anyway. Russia tried to join NATO in 2002 but were rejected, which could have prevented the perception, on the part of the Russian government, that Moscow is being encircled by NATO. Since they aren't allowed to be part of the collective security apparatus of the North Atlantic alliance, but the North Atlantic alliance keeps expanding to surround their borders, it was only a matter of time before they started to see this as a war-worthy provocation. Also the USSR tried to join NATO back in 1954, at the beginning of the Khrushchev thaw, but were also rejected, leading to the formation of the Warsaw pact in 1955, which was the Soviet answer to NATO. So there were a lot of changes to prevent this flare up of regional tensions. But I believe the USA never wanted to prevent tensions from flaring up. I believe the USA saw this as another war they could profit from by selling weapons, since it takes place far from their borders.
I blame Capitalism first, NATO/USA second, Russia third, Ukraine last. The nazi problem in Ukraine is (mostly) a byproduct of CIA-backed radicalization efforts in my opinion. Every country has right wing psychos, but only some of them come to power by getting money, weapons, and training clandestinely from the USA. I also view this as a European repeat of operation cyclone, which is where the USA gave money/training/weapons to Jihadists in Afghanistan to destroy the soviet-allied government there and bait the soviets into a costly occupation. I also view this as an extension of the cold war into the 21st century, except it's now an economic conflict between the imperial core and the rising 2nd world (China/Russia) rather than a conflict between Capitalism and Communism. USA was also motivated to get rid of Nordstream 2. America wants to sell its liquid natural gas to europe at exorbitant prices, but europe is getting it for much cheaper through the Russians. Even with the sanctions, Europe is still buying Russian gas through the backdoor of India.
lol wait until you find out how Texas became a US state
This is all fair and I can't dispute it, but have you considered that all of it is Russian propaganda?
Ok. But if NATO is gonna continue to arm nazis in Ukraine I think the people of Russia can have a buffer between them.
that would depend on if the mexican govt had been bombing the shit out of northern Mexico for 10 years. Then your example would be accurate. Cartels arent the mexican govt though. And i don't think the cartels are launching missiles into populated cities.
Would also require the Mexican government to be playing footsie with a hostile (to the U.S.) military alliance that would just love to station missiles pointed at Washington.
also, why do lib mayos always equate gangs with wignat identitarians?
is it because violent identitarianism is basically only a phenomenon in white countries and exceptionally poor countries?
The cartels are not trying to remove people of certain % Spanish DNA. They're basically just another gang like the mafia, crips, etc This is very different from going out of your way to kill Romani and Russian people with no reward other than their deaths
This is an official regiment of the Ukrainian army.
Not just "nazis are in ukraine".
Lol 3 Nazi symbols on their flag. They couldn’t fit anymore?
This narrative falls apart when you consider the fact russia was wanting peace around the start of march, and part of this peace deal was that Ukraine wouldn't join NATO, but all the occupied land (excluding Crimea for you shitlibs there who think it is part of ukraine.) But Ukraine rejected it, since they want a regime change in russia, and control of crimea.
The narrative that the capitalists of russia would give up their most lucrative money making scheme (selling oil to the guzzling westerners) for a brutal war just to gain bombed out cities its completely devoid of historical materialist analysis, the capitalist would never chose an option which would hurt their profits if it didn't force them to.
Honestly seeing leftists repeat this propaganda is disappointing, and I'm going to repeat this. You can criticise Russia, without having to use liberal-imperialist propaganda like "warm water-ports" or "occupying ukraine" or even a simple name like putler. The fact is, ukraine was conducting an extremely brutal war on separatist countries all because they seek their simple right for self-determination after their autonomy was rejected. This war came about because the west are paranoid imperialists who want to salt the earth.
And the de-Nazification comes from more of a cultural standpoint rather than an actual struggle against fascism itself, this part is true. But seriously they have more of nazi problem than ukraine? Which literally has an ex-president who's an open Nazi and wears Nazi Imagery? I find this extremely hard to believe.
This literally just ignores the entire history of the Minsk agreements and Russian-Ukraine relations between 1991-2014, also the fact there's been a brutal civil war on Russia's border for the last 8 years
There’s no need to make up scenarios. The US already did this with Cuba, Africa, and the Middle East. Mr. Putler is just inspired by American policies like his predecessor Hitler
I’m only being mostly facetious. Liberals claim that he’s worse than Hitler, but like Hitler, Putin is likely somewhat inspired by American policies since when was the last time the US was punished for any of its aggression and invasions? If you were Putin, it doesn’t make much sense politically to be more polite than the US. I still think he’s a fascist for tolerating and utilizing Nazis in his fight, but so is every other Anglo president for utilizing Nazis in their special forces and PMCs as well as allowing Nazis any privileges and protections because
. Liberals keep justifying Ukraine’s glorification of Nazis by saying “there are white supremacists and Nazis everywhere” but get upset when you want to deal with the ones in power at home first.
how is Putin a successor to Hitler. Putin is not a nazi he's not a good person but he is not a fascist
"Chinazi" vibes
Honestly not a bad take compared to many others I've seen regarding this shit show. Russia doesn't really give a shit about Nazism in Ukraine and is using this war to secure it's strategic assets around the region that had been in under Russian/Soviet control for centuries before the breakup of the USSR. 2014's coup threatened any sort of cooperation in Crimea and hence Russia proceeded to annex it.
Or NATO was going to install nuclear launch sites next door to Russia. But if you gloss over that fact then yes, Russia bad.
Analogy: Mexico lets a US adversary install nuclear launch sites just south of the USA border. How do we think that would go? Mexico would be the pawn.
What's happening in Ukraine is a result of USA/EU actions, and Ukraine not being smart enough to pick up a history book and see how the USA uses poor countries as fodder. They must be shoveling mass money and cocaine at Zelensky. It's all literally a case of "well well, the consequences of our actions." The USA just wants resources and nuclear launch sites.
they certainly do. But America has trouble relating because we were all cushy and safe over here while Russia was ratfucked by Nazi Germany. Russians still know the songs about the Great Patriotic War.
The problem with this take is that why would Russia take pieces of land in Ukraine just to invite unprecedented sanctions against itself? Russia has lost hundreds of billions of US dollar assets and their oligarchs have been hit even harder, with overseas assets and properties seized.
The annexing of Crimea in 2014 invited sanctions that practically erased Russia’s economic growth that had been gaining ground since 2001, which took near 4 years (44 months!) to even get back to the pre-sanctions level (even worse than the 2009 global financial crisis and the Covid recession in 2020). So it’s not like they didn’t anticipate this would happen.
Yes Russia is lucky their economy didn’t collapse, but what is the point of a land grab in Ukraine when you lose businesses from your European partners? Tens of billions and years of construction went into Nord Stream (both pipelines) just to be abandoned, and then bombed? It is clear that Russia felt that it had to make this decision because the situation had devolved to the point where an invasion of Ukraine has become the least worst for them (emphasis here is failure of diplomacy).
The imperialism of the 21st century is one of super-imperialism, where you can simply cut off their financial access to the world’s most liquid asset (US dollar) and watch them struggling to survive. This is how the hegemon gets its “free lunch” from the rest of the world, simply through printing currency out of thin air and having total control of that currency, which comprises 85% of the world’s transaction. And this is why de-dollarization is at the forefront of the countries who wish to escape the claws of US imperialism.
not luck they have spent decades making their economy more sanction proof in the lead up to this as they saw it coming
It’s both, Russia did make its economy more resilient to sanctions, but ultimately it is not an industrial nation but one of resource colony.
Make no mistake, Russia is food and energy self-sufficient, it will survive even in the harshest sanctions, but it would still be very painful for the transition because it lacks many industries. It would have taken years to rebuild the Soviet era industrial supply chain if they were really cut off access to imports from the rest of the world.
Russia got lucky that China and the rest of the world didn’t join the Europeans in sanctioning them. One factor could be that the US overplayed its hands, by seizing all of Russia’s foreign reserves ($300 billion) and cutting off SWIFT access actually had the unintended detrimental consequences as it scared the other countries into thinking that they better find ways to get out of the US dollar regime in one way or another, or this too would be their fate one day if the US isn’t happy with them.
They already knew this, since this behavior from the US is hardly new. Just look at Cuba, Iraq, Iran, DPRK, etc. Although I guess the difference here is scale, since if you sanction Iran or Cuba that's not going to affect most of the world's nations, so it's relatively easy to ignore.
I think it did motivate material actions to some extent though, as we’re seeing with the expansion of BRICS and dedollarization within these countries.
I think they do care a little bit in that for the last 8 years those nazis have been engaged in a civil war right next to the Russian border and believe that ethnic Russians are inferior. Russia doesn't need to be ruled by saints to be annoyed at that turn of events
you got here 12 days ago lol, please learn more about this community before wildly misrepresenting its views. you're on a communist queer forum and Russia is capitalist and homophobic.
The Nazi problem in either case is not comparable. You'd get actual Nazi battalions in Russia if liberal darling Navalny got his way.