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Great influence (thelemmy.club)
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[-] Triumph@fedia.io 95 points 1 week ago
[-] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 269 points 1 week ago

For the lazy who don't want to look it up

[-] WesternInfidels@feddit.online 100 points 1 week ago

It feels so out of the blue, so unnecessary. Like the writer had been bored. It's difficult to imagine that this didn't jolt readers out of the story, even at the time.

[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 72 points 1 week ago

Languages change. Moron, idiot and imbecile used to be medical terms. Gay used to simply mean happy and excited. A fag used to be a term for a cigarette.

I really doubt it would have appeared in a mainstream children's book if it were seen as at all offensive.

Words like "bugger" and "damn" used to be extremely offensive curses. Now they're often used as very mild expressions of annoyance to avoid using the serious ones.

[-] FishFace@piefed.social 45 points 1 week ago

Fag still is a term for a cigarette...

[-] starik@lemmy.zip 22 points 1 week ago

Yeah, but only in old-timey countries, like England.

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[-] gerryflap@feddit.nl 11 points 1 week ago

Exactly. I started reading The Fellowship of the Ring again, and it takes some getting used to that "queer" is used in a completely different way than nowadays.

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[-] DamienGramatacus@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago

Weren't idiot, moron and imbecile medical terms specifically used by white scientists to describe black people back in the good old eugenics days of the 1920's America? Language changes sure but it often has very racist roots.

[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 week ago

I've never heard anything about it having a racial component.

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[-] the_crotch@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 week ago

Buggery used to be a crime, now it's a gay way to spend an afternoon

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[-] Scrollone@feddit.it 22 points 1 week ago

I mean... there's also a famous Agatha Christie's book that used to have the N-word in its title.

We're viewing these things with our modern eyes. But they didn't have this kind of sensibility those days. It probably felt like using any other word: normal.

I wonder if our grandchildren will feel the same way about something we say normally today.

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[-] Noel_Skum@sh.itjust.works 17 points 1 week ago

I doubt whether the vast majority of British readers would’ve been jolted by it - at the time of first publication. It was a word that had been in everyday parlance that got attached to dark “things” as a describer.

Here’s the thing though, go forward maybe 15 years again and you have the 1964 Smethwick constituency election. The winner had a, uhh, memorable slogan: “If you want a n***** for a neighbour, vote Labour.”

It’s worth noting that the “n*****s” in question were, most likely, gonna be from the Punjab. Go figure.

So, yeah, in less than a generation the word in question went from everyday speech with no overt pejorative meaning to the explicitly racist word it is today. It morphed.

[-] zjti8eit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 1 week ago

It was England, which never treated the n-world quite like those ungrateful colonials.

[-] JcbAzPx@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago

It was called out for being offensive even in that time by fellow English.

[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 9 points 1 week ago

I mean it is from 1951. I've seen a lot worse by people who meant it.

It's 4 years before Emmett Till was murdered for example.

[-] Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 1 week ago

I wonder if Carlin ever tried sneaking that past the censors.

[-] Trainguyrom@reddthat.com 5 points 1 week ago

George Carlin was voicing Mr Conductor in the American dubs in the 1990s, so a solid 20 years after the retraction

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[-] Gullible@sh.itjust.works 44 points 1 week ago

I genuinely don’t even understand what this means. Black people aren’t charcoal black.

[-] OwOarchist@pawb.social 62 points 1 week ago

Black people aren’t charcoal black.

According to old-timey racists, they are.

[-] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 39 points 1 week ago

Exactly ... according to old-timey racists in the 1950s ... this is what they imagined about black people

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[-] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 45 points 1 week ago

In the 1950s ... to average white people who might have never seen a black person before ... they would imagine this

[-] arrow74@lemmy.zip 27 points 1 week ago

I can promise you that the vast majority of white Americans had seen a black person in the 1950s.

[-] f314@lemmy.world 19 points 1 week ago

This is a British book, though

[-] arrow74@lemmy.zip 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

With the war and influx of American GIs in Britain, not to mention their colonies, I stand by my statement for Britain as well.

What helps in the case of the UK is a larger percentage of their population lives in cities than the US too. Just by the math living in urban areas you're just going to see more people and more people from outside your community will be come in.

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[-] FishFace@piefed.social 6 points 1 week ago

I don't think minstrel shows with black face were common in Britain?

It's more likely that white British people took it as "much darker than the skin we're assuming for people" which is enough to make the simile work.

[-] undeadotter@sopuli.xyz 9 points 1 week ago

You'd be wrong on that I'm afraid:

The Black and White Minstrel Show is a British light entertainment show on BBC prime-time television that ran from 1958 to 1978. The weekly variety show presented traditional American minstrel and country songs, as well as show tunes and music hall numbers, lavish costuming and often with cast members in blackface.

[-] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 7 points 1 week ago

What the fuck‽ Until '78‽

[-] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 week ago

and that was the problem .... the Brits loved the idea of a minstrel show in black face because it had everything they loved about it ... presenting black people as comical caricatures to be made fun of while also being presented and performed by white people ... because they never thought of hiring and paying for actual black people to do these things.

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[-] Midnight1938@reddthat.com 31 points 1 week ago

Remember the meme about the guy being immune to BnW filter?

[-] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 21 points 1 week ago

If you have never actually seen a person with dark skin that's how you might imagine one. Or so I did when I was a kid, growing up in a bunghole village in the impenetrable forests up in northern europe where the darkest skin I'd seen was that greek girl (not very dark at all).

My friend is also charcoal black, so that's definitely a possibility too, human skin is amazing, it can be black-blueish, chocolate, white or red (me in the summer).

[-] TribblesBestFriend@startrek.website 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

They « were » in theatre and movie production at the time. Black American weren’t allowed to play a role so they used white male with charcoal and shoe shine

Fun fact they were some black actor that did black face as a kind of protestation IIRC

[-] Pixel_Jock_17@piefed.ca 6 points 1 week ago

I'm just spitballing here but maybe back in the 1950s and earlier there wasn't as much mixed race couples or children from those interracial marriages? Like today we have so many shades of "black" that maybe wasn't as popular nearly 100 years ago.

Just a random thought

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[-] LodeMike@lemmy.today 9 points 1 week ago

I'm too lazy even for this. I need a red circle and perhaps some Family Guy to get my attention.

[-] Oka@sopuli.xyz 7 points 1 week ago
[-] psx_crab@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 week ago

Ahh yes, the famous last word.

[-] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 week ago

Outdated but not offensive, a lot better than it could have been.

this post was submitted on 19 May 2026
779 points (99.1% liked)

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