chapotraphouse

It’s clearly not fun for a lot of people. And sometimes the dogpile just doesn’t form.

You are completely right. Its not nice to be the only one arguing with a bunch of illiterate morons that react to a well-sourced response with "I'm not reading that propaganda". I don't really know what to do about that. I think it's clear that there is a sentiment on hexbear that "bullying libs" is good and fun, but that only works when you feel you're supported by your comrades. It's also incredibly shitty when you're hit with bigoted language, and nothing happens - that's my main issue so far.

While I don't see a lot of people changing in the moment (I can count on one hand the amount of times users from other instances have stopped to interact with the sources and consider their own position) I think it has an effect long-term, in that I feel I see fewer lemm.ee users with shitty takes now.

DM arassment also complicates the moderation issue + by selective federation

Yeah, it does make it more complicated. Maybe hexbear should out forth an ultimatum that DM harassers get banned from their own community?

we've already acknowledged that some instances should not be engaged with/cannot be regulated, so I don’t think stricter moderation is the only solution.

I agree in that there is most certainly some communities that are just too shitty. I don't know if I think SJW is one of those yet, that's why I'd like to just see much stricter moderation before we go ahead with defederating. I'd like to see if it makes a difference.

The pro-federation crowd were quick to criticize any “dunk” post for fear that it could jeopardize our position and provoke defederation, so even this “bullying” is restricted by the situation.

I agree, I think the idea of half measures was bad. I disagreed with it when it was put in place and I was happy when it was removed. Things such as those requirements do make this more difficult.

I disagree, you can’t build on hollow ground. Stricter moderation is absolutely necessary, but first we need to reconsider what instances we’re federated with. It’s silly, but what comes to mind is China’s reform and opening up. Deng Xiaoping said, "If you open the window for fresh air, you have to expect some flies to blow in”, and suggested a “net” to counter this. The difference is that we have the freedom to close this window before putting up the net, because federation isn’t a necessity of the new era, it is a choice we made. Some people are in support of it, some people are opposed to it, and popular opinion is all that matters in this case. Before we put up the net, we need to decide how large we want the window to be, so that we don’t accidentally place a net where there should be a solid wall. From our new experience we should have a discussion about what we learned from federation and a vote about what to do with the situation, rather than wait to see what “stricter moderation” (how can this be enforced across all comms? By a greater number of mods most likely, which exposes a host of new issues) will do.

Beautifully put, can't really say I disagree all that much with your points. I think in retrospect we went too quick about federating with new communities, and we should have had a chat beforehand - one that could also have been used to create resources such as I suggested. Other resources could be bots like the Whataboutism - bot, but with effortposts or the like.
It seemed as though we had just about reached a stable equilibrium, and then we went and upturned it once again. However this time we were less prepared for the new users we'd been interacting with - they make lemm.ee users seem like they're acting in good faith.

I think however if we close the window now - to use your beautiful metaphor - it will be more difficult to open it again later. I'm not saying I don't think we shouldn't do it, I'm saying I'm unsure and I'd like to see if stricter moderation and some community-sourced resources like your carrd could make a difference.