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Post truth world (lemmy.dbzer0.com)
submitted 11 months ago* by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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[–] 19 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

None. There is zero definitive evidence of which side of the aisle he is on. The right wants him to be left and the left wants him to be right. Some on the right want justice, some want vengeance. Most on the left are celebrating either way, some didn’t agree with Kirk but didn’t believe he should die for his views.

Then you have the people in the center of the aisle that just want to be left alone and don’t care. Both the left and right hates these people.

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  • [–] 32 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    some didn’t agree with Kirk but didn’t believe he should die for his views.

    I just need to call this part out because it keeps getting repeated. I don't think hardly anybody thinks he deserved to die for his views. His actions, on the other hand, really get people's attention.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago*

    Yeah, no one should die for their views, but also, I aint gonna more some fuckong fascist jackass or even cry over it in anyway. I am, frankly, mostly indifferent to it. Its not going to make anything better ultimagely, somenother talking idiot hole will fill the gap in the hate machine.

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  • [–] 13 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    And a fair chance he isn't on any side in particular. The team sports model of politics isn't everything...

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Completely agree. I’m a center aisle guy myself. Hell, I don’t even wanna be center. I don’t even wanna be in the same room 😂

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  • [–] 11 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    You got downvoted because everyone on the left thinks 'I'm centrist' is just something ppl say to disguise themselves whilst they say a bunch a right-wing shit; everyone on the right thinks the war has already begun, you gotta nail your flag to the mast, and why hide how you really feel; and everyone who's actually in the centre gave up discussing politics on social media years ago because it's detrimental to your mental health.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    I got downvoted because I’m a big bag of contradictions. I’m neither “this” or “that” I hold beliefs and views from all sides. So it’s easier for folks to just downvote and belittle than try to understand.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Oh really? Well you've made me think about the issues I split out into sides:

    • climate change: it's bad / fuck it
    • trans ppl: they cool / they're a perversion of gods design
    • God: idk whatever / The Christian God
    • guns: dangerous! Restrict! / I need guns
    • immigration: ok / not ok
    • women: human / subhuman
    • state funded healthcare: yes plz / no tnx
    • public transport: love it / hate it
    • bikes: I am literally a bike / I literally just killed a bike

    These aren't all aligned. Probably not all of them are a left/right divide to you. They're probably not even all 100% applicable to your lived reality - not everybody has spent much time thinking about God - but I am curious where you think you're left and where you think you're right, or what I'm missing from my incredibly glib yet serious list.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago*

    climate change: it’s bad / fuck it
    trans ppl: they cool / they’re a perversion of gods design
    God: idk whatever / The Christian God
    guns: dangerous! Restrict! / I need guns
    immigration: ok / not ok
    women: human with all human rights especially reproductive rights / subhuman
    state funded healthcare: yes plz / no tnx
    public transport: love it / hate it
    bikes: I am literally a bike / I literally just killed a bike

    ding ding (ringing my bike bell)

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Ok first I wanna commend you for actually trying to understand. Even if pretending. It means a lot. To answer your list.

    Climate change- no opinion. It changes daily. Or I’m just too dumb to understand it.

    Trans ppl- I am a Christian so naturally I don’t agree with it. BUT, I am not like the crazed lunatic Christians that will belittle them, berate them and talk down upon them. Or tell them they are a “perversion of Gods creation” or an abomination. They’re still human. I am human also. Who am I to judge?

    God- I am a Christian. More specifically a Southern Baptist Christian. Like I said previously though, I like to think not like some of the crazed lunatic Christians out there. From an early age I was taught to love all walks of life. My church has a saying. Be it cliche or whatever. But the saying is this— “Hate the sin. Love the sinner.”

    Guns- Absolutely dangerous. I’m Pro-2A. There’s some unhinged ppl out there that just shouldn’t own firearms. Mental health evaluation and gun safety courses should be mandatory before being able to purchasing any firearm.

    Immigration- 1000% ok. But only when done through the proper and legal channels. My family immigrated to the US many years ago from Ireland so I cannot get on board with illegal immigration.

    Women- Human, obviously. None of us would be here without them.

    State funded healthcare- not educated enough on this matter to have an opinion.

    Public transport- could work in larger cities/metro areas. But what about rural areas? How well would that work? Genuinely asking.

    Bikes(?)- motor or pedal? I don’t understand this one.

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago* (3 children)

    Climate change- no opinion. It changes daily. Or I’m just too dumb to understand it.

    Then listen to the experts, who all agree it's 1) man made, and 2) going to make life difficult for us. And no it doesn't change daily. That's the weather, the weather changes daily, but the weather isn't the climate. Climate change affects the weather, causing more extreme weather events, but it's not the same.

    Trans ppl- I am a Christian so naturally I don’t agree with it. BUT, I am not like the crazed lunatic Christians that will belittle them, berate them and talk down upon them. Or tell them they are a “perversion of Gods creation” or an abomination. They’re still human. I am human also. Who am I to judge?

    You don't agree with what? With who they are? How is that a thing to disagree on? Did you choose to be cis? Neither do they choose to be trans.
    Listen to the experts.

    God- I am a Christian. More specifically a Southern Baptist Christian. Like I said previously though, I like to think not like some of the crazed lunatic Christians out there. From an early age I was taught to love all walks of life. My church has a saying. Be it cliche or whatever. But the saying is this— “Hate the sin. Love the sinner.”

    As long as you or your church aren't advocating that we all have to follow your church's doctrine, I have no issues with this.

    Guns- Absolutely dangerous. I’m Pro-2A. There’s some unhinged ppl out there that just shouldn’t own firearms. Mental health evaluation and gun safety courses should be mandatory before being able to purchasing any firearm.

    On this we agree.

    Immigration- 1000% ok. But only when done through the proper and legal channels. My family immigrated to the US many years ago from Ireland so I cannot get on board with illegal immigration.

    And how do you think the "proper and legal channels" should look like. Especially for people fleeing their homeland because of events happening there.

    Women- Human, obviously. None of us would be here without them.

    Sure, but do they have bodily autonomy? Can they choose to have an abortion? (see my point under the "god" section)

    State funded healthcare- not educated enough on this matter to have an opinion.

    Fair enough

    Public transport- could work in larger cities/metro areas. But what about rural areas? How well would that work? Genuinely asking.

    Buses and trains work long distance too. Would you like the option for people to go to the city from your rural town, even if they don't own a car or if their car has broken down? A bus service could do that. Even if it only runs once per 2 hours or so.

    Bikes(?)- motor or pedal? I don’t understand this one.

    I think they're talking about bike lanes.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    Buses and trains work long distance too

    It's less about the distance and more about the distribution. It's really hard to come up with solid bus routes to cover how rural America is distributed. My area has been trying repeatedly to extend the municipal mass transit into even the suburban areas and has struggled to come up with any vaguely decent coverage. You basically need people to move into a more orderly arrangement.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    And how do you think the "proper and legal channels" should look like. Especially for people fleeing their homeland because of events happening there.

    Now you’ve elaborated on the subject of immigration further than the original commenter. I’ll do my best to answer with the limited knowledge I do have.

    By proper and legal channels I mean applying for a visa or green card through the USCIS. From what I know/understand a visa/green card can be obtained/applied for through Family Sponsorship, Employment-Based Visa Program, Humanitarian Program, and (I admittedly had to look this one up) the Diversity Visa Lottery which sounds like it’s for people from countries with low immigration to the U.S.

    Now to more specifically answer your refugee question— I absolutely believe that these people should be allowed to come to the U.S. But like I said, legally. And heck, maybe even have their citizenship (if they so choose to become citizens) fast-tracked due to the extenuating circumstances from which they escaped from.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Thank you for writing that down, seems fair enough to me.

    But like I said, legally.

    Most people try to do it legally, if the option is there.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Thank you for taking the time to ask questions and try to understand my views and beliefs without vilifying me for it. It was a nice change of pace from the typical argument that usually happens.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I'm trying to better myself, and not assume so much about other people.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    Likewise. It’s kind of why I’m here. I got very irate with someone on Reddit a few days ago. Something I had not done in a very long time. But I said some things that I should not have that got me a permaban from Reddit. So here I am with a fresh mind, trying to be a better person.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Then listen to the experts

    You say that like it's trivial. How does one determine who the experts are without sufficient knowledge in the area to begin with?

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    If they're saying "No one else is telling you this", they're not an expert. But you're right, it's not easy.

    I should've said "go where the consensus is", especially if you don't have any knowledge on this yourself.

    Don't think you know better than anyone else, because you heard one person say that things are different than what "tHe MaIn StReAm TeLlS yOu"

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    go where the consensus is

    I'm pretty sure that's what most people are doing already. If everyone around you says climate change is a hoax, then that sure sounds like a consensus.

    This is one of those questions that keeps nagging at me. I have the resources to actually go and learn about things and build a sufficiently large world model to filter out a lot of BS. But in areas that I'm less well versed in and that aren't covered by my world model, I realize that I have no idea who the experts are or how to find the consensus without doing tons of reading. If I've read enough to determine the consensus position, then I'll have absorbed enough of the material that I can be considered somewhat of an expert myself. So how can I possibly convince someone else without making them go through that whole process themselves? You probably don't have an answer to this, but any ideas are welcome too if you happen to have any to share.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    I knew I should have added "Scientific consensus" because sure, if you follow the neighbour down the street into his or her conspiracy rabbit hole, you'll end up believing that climate change is a hoax invented by "the Jews" to hide the "fact" that the earth is flat, and that we never went to the moon, and that Bush did 9/11.

    If you don't have knowledge, and don't know where to start, then it's not your place to convince someone else. All you can say is then "I don't know either", which is a full sentence.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago*

    I should have added “Scientific consensus”

    I don't think that changes anything. For example, I'm not a nutrition expert, but it's an area I'm very interested in and I consider myself reasonably well read on the subject. I still have no idea what the scientific consensus is on anything in the field, especially when so many papers end with "we know jack shit about this, but at least this study moves us forward a little bit".

    If you don’t have knowledge, and don’t know where to start, then it’s not your place to convince someone else

    I'm talking about areas in which I do have the knowledge. It's not a reasonable expectation for someone else to go through the same process that I did to gain all that knowledge. I can scream "CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL BECAUSE LOOK AT THESE EXPERTS" as much as I want, but the other party will still have no way to verify my claims, or that these experts are actual experts and not some cherry-picked scientists.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I am a Christian so naturally I don’t agree with it. BUT, I am not like the crazed lunatic Christians that will belittle them, berate them and talk down upon them. Or tell them they are a “perversion of Gods creation” or an abomination. They’re still human. I am human also. Who am I to judge?

    I've met Christians who never once denied my identity or acted like accepting me was fundamentally against their faith. I could argue that trans identities are a natural and evolved phenomenon, but you don't seem scientifically inclined. Would anything ever change your mind to recognize us as who we say we are?

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    Honestly, I’m not sure. Truly I am not sure. I will say though that I don’t like to think that I deny the trans community in what they say they are. I’m trying to explain this as best as I know how without any misunderstanding cuz that tends to happen over text since there’s zero indication of tones and whatnot. Anyways, like if you are what you say you are and you are happy then that’s great. Fantastic even. I’m happy for you. Truly I am. I will sit here and wish you and all of the trans community nothing but absolute happiness and success in life.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    It has a lot to do with fundamentals of why you believe what you believe. Did you just get lucky and not get taught to reject and scorn people who don't fit your worldview? Would you ever reconsider your spiritual understanding with new information on how the world appears to be, and if so, what would be fundamental and what would not?

    On a more practical level, how much would you actually support our happiness? Would you have a problem with supportive parents letting their children use professionally guided medication avoid the pain of a puberty they never wanted? If the medications adults currently use to feel comfortable in our skin are made illegal, would you have a problem with us breaking the law to get it? Would you be ok with it because of our dire need, or would it be similar to how you view illegal immigration?

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    On a more practical level, how much would you actually support our happiness? Would you have a problem with supportive parents letting their children use professionally guided medication avoid the pain of a puberty they never wanted? If the medications adults currently use to feel comfortable in our skin are made illegal, would you have a problem with us breaking the law to get it? Would you be ok with it because of our dire need, or would it be similar to how you view illegal immigration?

    You’re talking about puberty blockers for children?

    At risk of looking like a fool I decline to answer this fully due to not having a full understanding of it.

    So I’ll ask this instead— Why are they illegal? Is it a fundamental/moral reason? Or is there a medical reason? Like they haven’t been able to figure out how to get the dosage or whatever low enough for children to safety be able to take?

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    In effect, almost everyone ends up going through some form of puberty by default. There are temporary effects that can be reversed at any point by the opposite hormones, but many effects are permanent and costly to adjust later. Going through male puberty at default ages makes you grow taller and sprout permanent facial hair, while you don't grow as tall with female puberty and gain breasts which are even harder to remove.

    The care for trans minors seeks to delay puberty for a couple years, but this is cannot be done for too long, or the window for certain development is missed. As such, anyone who takes puberty blockers eventually has to go down either path. The consequences are that certain things cannot be reversed, so it's important to get the puberty right the first time whether that be a trans or cisgender one.

    With proper therapy and informed consent to discover what the teen truly wants, it is safe and effective at preventing pain for trans kids and giving kids who decide medical transition isn't right for them an appropriate out. A member of my family explored their gender as a minor, but didn't medically transition, so I will not say people don't change their minds. However, that option for people confident in their gender at an early age does save them the horror of watching their body change without being able to stop it.

    As far as why it gets made illegal, it is usually not people who are friendly to trans folks doing it. It is usually an effort to eventually ban all trans care, as saying "think of the children" gets people on board. In states like Florida that restricted care for minors, there were less advertised restrictions on adult care that occurred at the same time (preventing medicare from funding it and the like). They put their desire to not see more trans people exist first, and put empirical reality second.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    Not sure why I'm engaging, but what the hell...

    Climate change - yes, too dumb to understand. Actually, I think you are being willfully ignorant. "It changes daily"? Wtf?

    Trans ppl - "I am a Christ so naturally I didn't agree" wtf? Didn't agree with what?

    That's as far as I could get. I think you are unwilling to challenge what you were raised to believe was right, and you operate out of an unconscious assumption that it couldn't simply be unfounded.

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