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(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 30 May 2025
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Never heard "JAQing off" before, that's good
No, no, no. You can't refute critical questions to the authenticity of possible propaganda just because it doesn't fit your narrative. I researched the article, the source, the commenters, the news outlet, and the journalists. I asked that you provide something more substantial than:
-The same news outlet over and over again.
-The same article over and over again.
-The same few pictures over and over again.
-The same commenters over and over again.
None of what you have provided is substantial proof or evidence, it's just the same thing repeated over and over again. It's like Peter Navarro saying he learned everything he knows from Ron Vara, his fictional alter ego.
At the end of the day what you are doing is an appeal to authority. You're saying that this news outlet said it so it must be true without looking at whether they provided substantial evidence in the first place.
EDIT: At the end of the day we have only 2 news articles, 1 news outlet, no named sources (everyone is anonymous including the guy making the shirts), 2 journalists who reference themselves and each other, 2 pictures, and 3 commenters. There is no other original source for this that I have been able to find.
Hareetz is the third largest newspaper in Israel, and is considered equivalent to our New York Times.
If the New York Times put out an article on the US military wearing similar shirts and that was untrue, I imagine there would be some statement by the US military contradicting it.
I’m sorry, you have nothing other than “this extremely prominent publication is lying and was never called out for it. Despite the fact that international media outlets like the BBC picked this up, at no point did the IDF deny it. This is totally logical.” Perhaps you could find a link of the Israeli military denying this? You don’t seem happy with any amount of sources, and aren’t providing anything your self.
I’d also ask you to count the named sources in each article - I’m not sure if you have your counts right on the number of journalists - you might also notice that the picture I provided in my last comment also cites another individual. I’m sure you can find names if you spend less time JAQing off, and more time reading the sources you’ve demanded.
Perhaps you could find a link of the Israeli military denying this? You don’t seem happy with any amount of sources, and aren’t providing anything your self.
What do you mean I'm not providing anything? I've provided pages worth of research into the sources you provided and now you're saying I have to find other sources that prove you're wrong rather than you having to provide a good source that proves you're right? Are you sure you're not the one jerking it around here?
That's a really spurious argument, they didn't deny it so it must be true? Even then,
If you want to make comparisons to the New York Times we can. Here is an article by the New York Times about Sexual Abuse of Teens in JROTC programs. In the article it provides an account by 2 different named victims along with calling out their public disclosures of the instructors that assaulted them before detailing how NYT investigated 150 public disclosure requests and found 33 instructors criminally charged. It goes on to say they interviewed 13 victims from the public disclosures and includes a map to support their stance that JROTC programs target high poverty schools. At the bottom of the article NYT includes a 4 paragraph description of the methodology used to undertake the investigation and frame their findings.
Lets go then,
Article 1
Published 3/20/2009
Author Uri Blau
Sources: Unnamed Arab Supervisor, Unnamed Givati Soldier, Evyatar Ben-Tzedef (commenting on nonoffensive shirts he saw in the 90's), Yossi Kaufman (commenting on non offensive shirts he saw in the 90's and says he has seen such shirts rarely), Orna Sasson-Levy (commenting on how graduation shirts of any kind are used to build moral and culture), Col. Ron Levy (talking about how graduation shirts build culture).
Total sources that say they've seen offensive graduation shirts, 2 unnamed, Orna Sasson-Levy, and Yossi Kaufman.
Video Report 1
Published 3/23/2009
No attributed reporter.
Sources: Orna Sasson-Levy and one shirt available for purchase.
Article 2
Published 3/23/2009
No attributed author
Sources: Only references the earlier Haaretz article.
Article 3
Published 3/23/2009
No attributed author
Sources: Only references the earlier Haaretz article.
Article 4
Published 3/23/2009
No attributed author
Sources: The article lists the Associated Press as a source, but I could not find such article. All other references are for the earlier Haaretz article.
Article 5
Published 3/24/2009
Author Matti Friedman
Sources: There is a reference to "The Army" saying they wouldn't tolerate the shirts, they reference the earlier Haaretz article, and Fawzi Barhoum (Hamas Spokesperson). No sources listed saying they have seen said shirts.
Article 6
Published 4/1/2009
Author Uri Blau
Sources: None, he says "as exposed by Haaretz" in reference to his own other article and says that the IDF released a statement about not allowing soldiers to wear such a shirt, but doesn't link it.
Article 7
Published 1/2/2017
Author Shachar Atwan
Sources: Orna Sasson-Levy (commenting on the psychology of soldiers), Unnamed Female Soldier whom Oran Sasson-Levy says gave her story/information, Yoaz Hendel (commenting on the psychology of soldiers), Ofer Nordheimer Nur (commenting that the shirts show up in unexpected places), Danny Kaplan (commenting on the ramifications of such shirts on the implied fitness of the army), 2 pictures of drawings for supposed shirts and 1 picture of a shirt in the wild supplied by the Author.
Total sources that say they've seen offensive graduation shirts: 1 unnamed female soldier as told by Orna Sasson-Levy, Presumably Orna Sasson-Levy herself, and presumably Ofer Nordheimer Nur (as he says they've been seen in Gaza).
To summarize this we have: 7 articles and 1 video, 2 original authors and 1 who copied them (Uri Blau, Shachar Atwan, and Matti Friedman respectively), 3 mostly original reports (2 are by Uri), 6 news outlets but all the original reports came from Haaretz, 20 total sources (referenced people or articles) of which 8 are repeats (by my count), 2 pictures of designs for shirts, 2 pictures of shirts as displays for sale, and 1 picture of the shirts in the real world.
Of the 11 unique people referenced across all of these articles only 6 say they have seen these shirts and 3 of them are anonymous or 3rd party retellings. It took 7 articles and a news report to get the same amount of information as a single NYT article.