482
Trump to lift pause on 2,000-pound bomb supply to Israel, Walla News reports
(denvergazette.com)
this post was submitted on 21 Jan 2025
482 points (96.7% liked)
World News
39757 readers
3178 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News [email protected]
Politics [email protected]
World Politics [email protected]
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
That doesn't work as a matter of international law.
For example, we have had multiple instances where we provided civil aid to a country only to have it confiscated and misappropriated by a corrupt government, that doesn't mean we stop sending aid.
You're not the Hague and law is not morality. Taking the stance that a "plz don't use for genocide" note absolves the United States of responsibility is a subjective stance. You can carry on an argument for why you think that should be the case, but you shouldn't be moderating because someone does not hold your view.
And none of your examples apply in the least to sending weapons to Israel post invasion. They're using our weapons to do genocide, the same people are in power, and the weapons are being used out in the open as official acts by the government.
The fact of the matter is that Israel is (correctly) being blamed by the ICC, NOT America.
Not that it matters what the ICC says anyway, but that's an entirely different problem.
The real problem is Israel doesn't need our help exterminating Gazans, they never have. They didn't need our help starting the blockade back in the 90s, they didn't need our help killing people immediately following Oct. 7, and their snipers don't need our help killing kids today in violation of the cease fire.
https://lemmy.world/post/24563168
The notion that it would have all stopped except for Biden's aid is a child-like understanding of what's been happening over there and the knee-jerk lemmy reaction of "US bad".
This is a fine subjective argument you're making. You keep coming back to this with your opinion on responsibility and not addressing that this is your opinion on a subjective subject (how responsibility is divided between an actor and someone who has supported them). There's lots of interesting moral philosophy about the subject.
What it isn't is objective truth. No amount of arguing is going to change that. You might theoretically even change my opinion, but it's never going to become an objective truth that justifies moderating someone saying "Biden supported genocide" as misinformation.
Again, not subjective. The ICC has charged Israel, not the United States, not Biden.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/11/israel-opt-netanyahu-gallant-and-al-masri-must-face-justice-at-the-icc-for-charges-of-war-crimes-and-crimes-against-humanity/
If the US were to blame for the Genocide, the ICC would have charged Biden right alongside Netanyahu just like they charged Putin over Ukraine, they did not.
But, like I say, it doesn't really matter as the ICC rulings have no enforcement. Would be nice!
JFC dude. The ICC is not the arbiter of people's legitimate moral philosophy and you are not a judge at the Hague. You can't export your moral (or moderation) judgement to the court system.
Philosophy doesn't enter into it, this is about legal liability and the facts are right behind what I'm telling you. Quoted, cited facts.
I'm not asking you to LIKE it. But you have to accept the reality that only a very small fringe believes Biden is to blame for this.
You have this so backwards it actually makes my head hurt.
It is a shame you are a moderator in this community given your strange sense of when appealing to an authority for truth is acceptable and when it isn't.
Like... sure the ICJ is necessary and great but who is to say they don't believe the US and Biden are directly complicit they just know saying the whole truth gives them zero chance of winning? That is a very simple but reasonable hypothetical and I made it to point out the massive blindspot in your understanding of the world.
Biden absolutely is as directly morally culpable as if he had dropped the bombs himself, you don't get to play games with escaping culpability when you get the job as president...
and just to be clear, fuck Trump
Again, morality and philosophy are subjective. Legally, which is objective, Biden is not responsible.
So we are only allowed to discuss responsibility in the context of a narrow legal definition... on a world news sub?
You are searching for a line between the black and white and you don't realize you are in a sea of different shades of grey.
The question over whether Biden is responsible is inherently subjective and even if it wasn't an authorities' conclusion that Biden is or isn't responsible for the Palestinian genocide is inherently subjective...and subject to interests that may influence and distort a picture of the truth.
Also, what would happen if the legal definition of responsibility was unethical and unjust and you knew it? Would you still moderate according to those rules even if they violated your core values?
The law is a record of political and human struggle, there is nothing about it that makes it somehow impervious to bias or corruption like (arguably) the study of pure math or logic is.
No, you can discuss anything you want, but you won't be allowed to assert blatant falsehoods as true.
Same goes when I remove the arguments about Ukranians being Nazis or how they were the real aggressors after Russia invaded them or how the Uyghur genocide is all made up by Western powers to make China look bad.
Bullshit gets removed, repeated, unrepentent bullshit gets a temp ban. Repeated temp bans get longer and longer until the bullshit is excised.
What an example to choose. I.C.C. Won’t Investigate China’s Detention of Muslims
From your article:
"Prosecutors in The Hague said on Monday that they would not, for the moment, investigate allegations that China had committed genocide and crimes against humanity regarding the Uighurs, a predominantly Muslim ethnic group, because the alleged crimes took place in China, which is not a party to the court."
They have no legal jurusdiction in China.
They don't have legal jurisdiction in the United States either!
NO, IT ISN'T. The discussion was never about legal liability. You made that excuse! Whether Biden is responsible is a moral question, not a legal one. There's whole fields of moral philosophy about these things. You can be responsible for simply not stopping a third party from doing something, let alone actively enabling them.
Even if that's true, that doesn't matter, and SUBJECTIVELY, I think you're the one with a weird minority position (no responsibility for arming someone known to be dangerous). The whole point is that neither of these position is an objective truth, because they're about moral belief. You've got an opinion, it could even be the majority opinion, but it's an OPINION, because the whole question doesn't have an objective answer.
I really don't get how you think this is a legal question, or that the ICC would be the ultimate deciding body of what legitimate opinions people can hold about responsibility for immoral acts. It's a baffling opinion, and I'd love to do this debate back and forth, but the resolution of our moral debate is irrelevant, because the real problem is that you're moderating based on a subjective belief and for some reason unable to even recognize that moral responsibility is a subjective topic.
It absolutely is, you kept bringing up the subjective vs. objective argument.
The objective truth is the legal rulings from the ICC court cited above.
Your subjective notion of what's "philosophically true" cannot be objectively proven one way or the other. That's the very nature of philosophy.
I gave you the citations from Biden stating his reasoning, I gave you the ruling from the ICC. These are all the legal standings surrounding Biden's support of Israel.
If you want the objective truth, you have it, quoted and sourced. If you choose to reject it, well, I can't help you with that.
Holy fuck man, go talk to one of your other mods, because you're not really not addressing this at all.
This was never a legal matter. YOU injected that to justify moderating a moral viewpoint. The original comments are in the modlog. They weren't making a statement about law. I wasn't making a statement about law. YOU are the one defining the only legitimate "responsibility" a human can hold being if they are charged with a crime.
Do you think China is not responsible for the genocide of the Uyghurs because the ICC isn't charging them? Was Netanyahu not responsible for the genocide before the ICC case? Are only Netanyahu and Gallant responsible because they were the only ones charged? "What the court says is the only allowed truth" is such a broken viewpoint for a moderator to hold on a message board.
YES. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. You moderated a subjective opinion as misinformation and then justified it with your own subjective opinion. Then insisted you were making an objective decision by pretending this was a conversation about the ICC. What the ICC thinks is irrelevant to the whole conversation. You can cite them as much as you want, but it was never the question being discussed. And like really trivially obviously so.
Again, not a moral viewpoint.
Objectively, by any and all legal definition, Israel is responsible for the genocide in Gaza NOT Biden.
Quoted, and cited. You can go on and on about how you "feel" diferently, but you can't say that and ignore a legal ruling as being subjective.
Unless, and I'm open to the very real possibility at this point, that you don't ACTUALLY know the definitions of "objective" and "subjective".
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/objective
1: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations
The ICC found Israel and Netanyahu responsible for the genocide in Gaza. Factually true. They did not charge Biden. Factually true. Cited above. This is the objective reality of the situation and comments accusing Biden of genocide will continue to be removed as misinformation.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subjective
3a : characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind
4a(1) : peculiar to a particular individual
(2) : modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background
5 : lacking in reality or substance
"I don't care what the ICC says! I feel different!"
That would be you. We're done here, it's like talking to a poorly informed wall.
TALK TO YOUR FELLOW MODERATORS. This is both a massive failure as a moderator and breaking your own civility rules. I've been a mod, it's a hard job, but right now you're totally failing at the role and need to step back and reevaluate what you've been doing.