2008
Everything is so expensive
(lemmy.ml)
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this post was submitted on 15 Oct 2024
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I suggest voting with your feet and living in cheaper countries with better infrastructure.
Why give broken US systems more money if you weren't getting anything in return?
It's not like you can just up and move when you don't have money. There's also the little issue of not being a citizen wherever you go, and then add in the culture shock, and family being far away. It's no wonder people stay.
ohet
You know what? Instead of just down voting you, imma explain. You highlighted exactly why people do not understand abuse.
Sure, leaving your abuser is the obvious answer. But the ability to leave your abuser is much more complex. If you were being savagely beat, but if you left your child starts to get beat, and they have restricted access to your child, how do you leave then?
Do you think victims want to keep being abused? No. Many times they can't find an escape because so many things are controlled by there abuser. Money, communication, social lives, health. People dont leave countries for the exact same reasons. A lot of us know one language, and do not have enough time to learn another. What about those of us who have to take medication daily? How am I supposed to get that medication across the border and find a doctor to prescribe it. Hell, how do I even know if the medicine I take is available in that country? Research it? Can't. Don't have the time.
Critical thinking requires you to test aspects supporting and dissenting from your original understanding. Instead of "why x reasons won't prevent you" in this scenario, find a single reason that could.
I can guarantee you that there is a long complex list of reasons why people are unable to leave the abuser just like they are unable to leave a country.
"Sure, leaving your abuser is the obvious answer. But the ability to leave your abuser is much more complex."
I didn't say it was the obvious answer, you did.
I said it was the savvy alternative.
I also didn't say it was easy.
but I understand why you got confused, lots of people make the same assumptions you have.
as for your travel questions:
"What about those of us who have to take medication daily?"
you go to a hospital or pharmacy and get the medication.
If you are lucky enough to speak English, you'll have no trouble with this.
"How am I supposed to get that medication across the border and find a doctor to prescribe it?"
I would get the medication locally, but if you want or need to take it with you:
to get the medication across a border, fill out a small index card stating the medication and its purpose.
If you want the doctor to prescribe it, if that is necessary, you go to a hospital or a pharmacy.
"how do I even know if the medicine I take is available in that country?"
If it is available in your country, it is available in other countries.
"Don't have the time."
then you don't have this non-problem you are hoping is an issue.
people who need medication have the time to get the proper medication, which is usually much cheaper and easier to do in other countries because most countries have working health care systems.
"Critical thinking requires you to test aspects supporting and dissenting from your original understanding."
your misunderstanding of alternative = risk is a very common fear-based symptom of hermetic monocultures.
mint ice cream is an alternative to strawberry ice cream.
that does not make mint ice cream significantly more risky or dangerous than strawberry ice cream, it is simply an alternative that functions the same way.
So now we're starting down the road of throwing out logical fallacies to support your argument? Why don't you just go do something else. Arguing with people here with long winded responses isn't going to sway anybody anyway.
"So now we're starting down the road of throwing out logical fallacies"
I don't mind If you're going to try fallacies next, but they probably aren't going to fare much better than your previous illogical reasoning, which didn't exactly pan out for you.
"Why don't you just go do something else."
I'm washing clothes right now.
you're my down time.
"Arguing with people here with long winded responses isn't going to sway anybody anyway."
I've had the opposite experience.
although it is funny that you ostensibly think that while simultaneously keeping the conversation going.
You can just walk into any hospital and a doctor will have time to see you and prescribe a medication for you? Or you can just walk into any pharmacy and get a medication without a prescription? Forgive me if I'm skeptical. What country are you describing?
While this is generally true, it is not universally true for all medications. Where a specific medication is not available there generally will be similar/suitable alternatives (at least, in a country with a developed healthcare system), but a lay person won't know what those are and will require professional guidance, meaning finding a doctor and waiting for an appointment. During which time you may well run out of your medication.
This take suggests a lack of perspective on chronic/debilitating illnesses as well as poverty. I hope you never have to experience either. I don't know about wherever you're from, but in the US it is not uncommon for people to have to work 2-3 jobs just to survive and taking time off for going to a doctor and pharmacy could mean the difference on making enough to pay rent this month. Even if taking time off is a real option, for people struggling to secure basic survival needs (i.e. food/shelter), it leaves little cognitive space for more abstract/complex concerns. It may be conceptually simple to obtain healthcare, but in practice it can be anything but simple even if the healthcare system itself isn't broken. I am fortunate enough to make a living with only one job but I work the same hours that most doctors' offices are open, which means taking time off work every time I or my offspring require care, which can quickly eat through paid leave time and isn't exactly conducive to success in America's abusive work culture.
Healthcare in whereever you are from may well be more functional than in the US, but I really can't fathom that it's as trivial as you imply for someone who requires medications or other ongoing treatment to simply arrive and get the care they need without potentially problematic delay.
"You can just walk into any hospital and a doctor will have time to see you and prescribe a medication for you?"
yes.
"you can just walk into any pharmacy and get a medication without a prescription?"
depends on the medication.
but mostly, yes.
I can't think of a legitimate health scenario where the answer is no.
"Forgive me if I'm skeptical."
forgiven.
I've heard these questions a hundred times.
If you're haven't traveled, you equate everything to the US, although things like the healthcare system abroad are meant to serve people rather than corporations so they function a lot differently than you're used to.
"What country are you describing?"
most of Western Europe and most of Asia (I can only speak to the countries I've been to), and I know someone who lives exclusively in the Balkans who says all the countries there are the same as well.
"While this is generally true, it is not universally true for all medications."
it's universally true as far as I'm aware and have experienced.
you might not have the same brand, but it'll be the same medication except readily available and cheaper.
"a lay person won't know what those are and will require professional guidance"
yea, I assume it's the same in your country? where some medications should be prescribed or recommended by a doctor?
"finding a doctor and waiting for an appointment."
Google and maybe sitting down and playing on your phone for a half hour is a lot easier than you're making it out to be.
"During which time you may well run out of your medication."
how?
I can't imagine this scenario happening.
Unless you're talking about something you have to take hourly and you brought one pill with you so you'll be without medication for 30 minutes?
these are such unlikely possibilities.
I've known known an uncountable number of travelers for the past decade, many of whom take medication, zero of which have ever complained of not being able to find their particular medication.
not once.
I hear "geez did you know X is only like three bucks here? It's like $80 a bottle in the states!"
"This take suggests a lack of perspective on chronic/debilitating illnesses as well as poverty."
couldn't be less correct.
your doubt on what I'm saying simply demonstrates your ignorance.
I'm not using "ignorance" as a pejorative term, I mean that you literally don't know what you are talking about.
chronic debilitating illnesses and poverty are characterized by financial trouble.
traveling takes away financial stressors.
I have known many retirees and chronically ill people who have regaled me with tales of how easy it is to retire in Vietnam/Germany/Portugal/Laos and so on because they don't have to worry about the cost of medication.
financial anxiety isn't completely determining their life.
"it leaves little cognitive space for more abstract/complex concerns."
Yes, this was my original point.
If you don't have any savings, if you're a month away from living on the street, if you have healthcare needs, and these financial stressors are determining your life, traveling can fix that almost instantly.
then you can save up money, make a plan and go back to whatever you want to do.
but at the very least you'll have breathing room, and what's most likely is you'll discover that traveling is way better than struggling in the US and you'll keep traveling.
"....isn't exactly conducive to success in America's abusive work culture."
yep, America's work culture sucks.
most other countries have siestas and employee rights.
and are focused on draining you financially. every second you're awake
Plus, if you're outside of the US for more than 330 days out of the year, you fill out the FEIE, an IRS tax form, and you don't pay income tax up to $120,000 per year.
"I really can't fathom that it's as trivial as you imply for someone who requires medications or other ongoing treatment to simply arrive and get the care they need without potentially problematic delay."
That's because you haven't done it yet(and I never said it was trivial).
It's difficult to fathom something you've never experienced.
especially when you're living in the worst existing iteration of functional health care infrastructure.
you've grown up with excruciating waits and debilitating, financially disastrous healthcare your whole life, and you are surrounded by people who think the same thing and think it's normal, so thinking about health care at all puts you in the mindset of excruciating waits, debilitating, financially disastrous, healthcare.
That's mostly a US specialty.
ask anyone who has traveled for any length of time and they will tell you exactly what I'm telling you.
I'm very happy to answer these questions and will answer any other questions you have.
How would someone with zero savings move to another country? Most have every barriers of highly skilled, unfilled professions. Like who move from extremely underprivileged nations to extremely wealthy nations often end up surrendering passport and other critical documents to their employers and end up severely mentally and physically abused, sexually abused, trafficked. How would an older person even pay for required documents, let alone a living space, food, utilities, especially being monolingual?
shrmp
Of course! My apologies, I just meant with the physical challenges, bursitis, arthritis, failing eyesight, etc.
Thanks so much for your answers. I appreciate them.
ou
Thanks. I'm not partial or full retirement age yet and I don't take any medications beyond aspirin or paracetamol. I'm supposed to, but I don't have funds for that or insurance either, right now. A lot of the meds I'm okay without anyway, afaict. But this is information I'll definitely look into. I'm okay being outside the city as long as I can get there or get what I need. I assume public transportation might be available, outside city or suburbs?
Have you ever been to Laos, Cuba or Vietnam? Can you please tell me a bit about any of those you've visited? Thanks.
ou
You make it sound so amazing! I could read your stories all day due days if I had no other obligations! If you ever visit southeastern US, and I'm not out of it yet, give me a shout - we'll do food and beer.
I didn't notice mistakes, and I agree with your USA assessment. May all your travels continue to bring you joy. Cheers!
thanks, it has been amazing so far.
and without financial stressors or many societal stressors really, I'm able to be in the moment a lot more and enjoy what's around me, do what I like to do(what a coincidence, food and beer are kind of high on my list).
that sounds fun; if I get back to area of the States, I will let you know.
have a good one, and if you have questions about any of this stuff on any level, hit me up.
I obviously have a lot of free time to respond, hahaha.
Very welcome! If I travel, I've bookmarked this thread so maybe we'll cross paths in more pleasant places.
I’m going to just roll into Canada and see if they kick me out? You can’t just show up in a country and roll the dice. American is not a desired nationality in developed countries.
Yes, you can just show up in a country.
I'm not sure what dice you're referring to, what sort of risk are you afraid of?
it's very easy to travel to other countries.
That's pretty fuckin dependent yo.
US to Mexico? Yeah Portugal to Spain? You bet. HK or Taiwan to PRC? HELL YES.
Mexico to US? Depends. US to Canada? Depends. UK to France? Depends.
NK to SK? Lol no Cuba to US? Lol no
Inside the Eurozone you're right, but it's not really an effective blanket statement.
dependent on having a passport and the price of a ticket.
If you have leapt those hurdles, you can travel to any of 186 countries with the click of a button and anywhere from ten to a few hundred dollars.
Canada was $22 yesterday from Washington.
I got a ticket from New York to London for $23 and a ticket from Ireland to Morocco for $12.
New York to Hong Kong? $213 this spring.
I'm comfortable checking ticket prices regularly, but even if don't plan at all, you can add 50 to 100 bucks to any of those prices and find a ticket right away.
you already mentioned you don't want to visit North Korea and Cuba.
That's okay, traveling to one country doesn't mean you have to travel to literally every country.
Just choose the places you want to go to.
I suggest avoiding North Korean and any countries currently operated by actively genocidal warlords.
leaves you with almost 200 other breathtakingly beautiful, culturally unique countries to travel to.
proof in the pudding:
tickets for tomorrow:
That's the traveling bit sorted, but you suggested living there, and there are many more problems to overcome to achieve that.
As a previous commenter said, within the EU it's doable, but you're going to run into visa related issues trying to immigrate to most other countries. Some, perhaps most, of those can be overcome by throwing money at the problem, but others are more permanent. Even once you have a visa there are often limits on what you can do and where you can work until you get the equivalent of a green card, which can take years.
Then there are the logistics of living in your adopted country. I've known enough immigrants to know it's possible, but also how much effort it takes, especially if you're moving as a family. There may be a new language to learn, there will certainly be a new culture, and whilst you can probably get by for a while, long term you need to learn it and integrate into it, or permanently be the outsider.
Then you have the upheaval of your life. Leaving your family and friends behind, and walking away from all the little things you know that make living where you do easier. These you face moving even a comparatively short distance, but they're magnified going overseas.
Of course it's possible, but it's nowhere near as simple as you suggest.
"Of course it's possible, but it's nowhere near as simple as you suggest."
it is exactly as simple as I suggest.
you buy a ticket, tell your things, go to the new country.
start saving money, figure out what you want to do.
or don't, and just hang out. retire at 30.
"...living there, there are many more problems to overcome to achieve that."
not that I've encountered or heard about from any traveler, It's more of the same.
"within the EU it's doable"
or any other part of the world.
'but you're going to run into visa related issues trying to immigrate to most other countries."
whoever is telling you this is incorrect from any practical or logistical perspective and obviously have no idea what they're talking about.
moving permanently is easy enough procedurally, but there isn't a ton of benefit in going through that whole process for no reason, whereas living in a place for 6 months or a year and then living in a place for another 6 months or a year gives you all of the upsides and none of the downsides.
especially within the context of saving money and controlling your own life, what's the point of going through the hassle of applying for citizenship or changing nationality when a Visa-free stay or tourist visa takes 10 minutes?
living permanently on tourist or digital Nomad visas is way less trouble than going the citizenship route, while retaining all of the benefits.
"Some, perhaps most, of those can be overcome by throwing money at the problem"
you don't have to guess, you can just ask the question.
If you have money, it doesn't really matter because visas are way cheaper overall than the cost of living in the US. $40 for 6 months is very common.
The only time money would help is if you're trying to buy citizenship specifically, in which case there are a few less financially stable Islands that will accept $60,000 or something to become a citizen.
again, there's no real reason to do this unless you want to second citizenship, but you seem very focused on these esoteric non-issues, so there's a way that you could necessarily spend a bunch of money money if you want to.
The Schengen areas are completely free for 3 months, and you can apply for longer visas if you like.
and visas take 10 to 15 minutes to apply to.
online.
traveling is much simpler than people think.
"Even once you have a visa there are often limits on what you can do and where you can work until you get the equivalent of a green card, which can take years."
If you work online, most countries do not have a restriction on you working in their country.
If you want to become certified in that country at some offline profession, then yes you're going to have to take certification courses like in every other country and profession.
but you're coming up with this very unlikely problem, like your health concerns that are completely immaterial to practical life.
why apply for a work visa if you don't have to?
Why commit yourself to a office job when you don't have to?
Why struggle for more money when you don't need more money?
If you are a native English speaker, you can start with zero experience TEFL certificate, repeating primary colors to school children for $20 an hour.
you can work as little or as much as you want online or in the classroom, and done.
work for a couple of months, save a couple grand, reevaluate.
English teaching is by far the easiest route to start making money immediately with zero experience, but online work is everywhere in every field and depending on what country you're in, a few hundred bucks a month is going to cover you.
steve not being able to be hired as a paper company manager in Stuttgart just isn't a realistic concern.
he doesn't have that financial burden or the negative cultural reinforcement where he is forced to believe he wants to be a paper company manager anymore.
"Then there are the logistics of living in your adopted country."
absolutely! immaterial.
Google house/apartment any City, get a house or an apartment.
every country has transportation, healthcare, supermarkets.
The "logistics" is a false scare, like "culture shock", where Americans pretend that they don't understand what a bicycle is.
"your muffins are usually savory? I'm used to sweet muffins!?! brain aneurysm!"
"upheaval"
sell your things. buy a ticket.
Slough off all of your financial concerns.
call your parents with free Wi-Fi calling or your family everyday.
or take your family with you, I know families that travel permanently.
it's so much cheaper and they get to live in all the paradise places everybody wants to go to.
traveling is exactly as simple as I'm making it out to be.
I've been doing it with zero problems for years, I know people who have been doing it for decades, I know people from every walk of life who have done it, with every disability or privilege you can imagine.
it boils down to buying a ticket and going where you want to go.
The first time can be scary, but there's nothing real stopping you from taking control of your life.
as soon as a traveler moves for the first time and you land in the new country, or you go into a store in Portugal and realize that yes they also have juice and toilet paper, you realize that all your concerns were ridiculous.
everything you do in the US, you can do in the countries you live in, for far less money with better social services.
So, question: You're someone with a not-remote-friendly skill set. You save your money to travel - travel, mind you, not immigrate, so subject to the visa requirements of travellers/tourists (as this seems to be what you're talking about - immigration is a whole different kettle of fish). The money runs out. What do?
Or - you're living paycheck to paycheck with children. You try to save money to travel for the reasons you've brought up here. It's not possible. What do?
No offence, but your account of travel as a solution here seems deeply naive. It can work for some, sure, but "just leave the country bro" simply isn't an option at all for many, many people.
ohet
Naive in the sense that it doesn't adequately account for the situation of many people. Not everyone has the circumstances where they can do this. I can't help but feel there's some survivorship bias influencing your position.
I'm curious, though, if you're up to illustrating (if not, totally fine): You are a single mother of two sons, ages 7 and 8, living in Generic State, USA. You have a high school degree and no post-secondary education. You have limited support, solely in the form of limited childcare, from family/the wider community. You make about $1600.00 USD per month, after taxes, working 50 hours a week at a physical workplace. You're finding yourself with $10 left at the end of each month, after all legitimately necessary expenses (rent, food, basic utilities) are paid for. Let's make it easy and say you have no debt.
What are you doing, and where are you going, if following your advice? It should be noted these circumstances are actually quite a bit better than other folks in the U.S. To be clear, I don't think this is a gotcha, nor is it intended to be - I just want to see your approach here.
Edit: Monthly wage should be after taxes, not before, and changed $900 to $1600 (based roughly on monthly takehome pay at Ohio's minimum wage rate, and I calculated for 1 pay period rather than 2 per month)
bsa
Can I do this from the USA, because every listing I see requires degrees or certifications. Can you toss a few websites my way, please?
ysne
Thank you, I'll look into that.
ya
Doing the work, spreading the good news. Haha 😆