this post was submitted on 22 Sep 2024
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LEO internet is not sustainable and should be banned.
If you want satellite internet geosync is way better. The only downside is latency but it's not worth destroying the planet and ruining astronomy globally over.
This. I was about to write the same.
Fuck Starlink and their absurd amount of satellites. Why are things that are bad on paper still out into practice and then get people to talk about it as if its the next best thing after sliced bread? 5 Geo orbit satellites do the same and more than an entire fleet of star link satellites that would ruin Astronomy forever, not to mention the pollution, high cost, and now having these stupid dots fly visibly through the sky at night. These satellites will fall out of the sky within a decade due to their low orbit so continously require more launches to resupply them, adding pollution over pollution. None of this is even mentioning the risk for a full scale Kessler syndrome with this trash.
Fully agree, Starlink (and others like it) should be forbidden
Don't worry next we're going to solve the non-existent problem of metal scarcity by dragging the ocean floor. Even though it will obliterate entire ecosystems built around the nodules we're going to mine. All so a billionaire can become a multi billionaire.
Elliptical orbits are perfect for polar regions, both Leo and geo are inevitability going to suffer more than a well covered elliptical
Destroying the planet? And geosync doesn't work period. What could have been done is the money that was given to the telecoms actually be used to run fiber to everyone that they promised...
You canβt reach everywhere with fibre. Some areas of the far north are too remote and too sparsely populated for it to ever make sense to put in fibre, and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future.
This deal provides critical infrastructure to those places while not binding us to the whims of an egotistical fascist asshole.
This is where I am. If he just stepped back and followed the laws for whichever region he was providing service in, I wouldn't have a problem with it being provided by an egotistic asshole. But he has done other than that a number of times, and that's a problem. All this ignores the national security issues, which people should have gotten a refresher on during COVID with the N95 mask issues.
Sometimes the more expensive option just makes sense if national security is a factor.
Norway saunters into the chat, shakes its head over this ignorant drivel, and walks back out while tapping itβs temple with a forefinger
Norway has a population of around 5 million in an area the size of 385 thousand sq km. As of the 2021 census, the territories have a combined population of around 117 thousand people in an area just under 3.6 million sq km.
The difference of scale there is massive. Kudos to Norway if theyβve done a good job extending their fibre networks, but I sincerely doubt weβll be able to achieve anywhere near the same level of penetration in the most environmentally harsh and most rural areas of our country with just fibre technologies.
Norway has one of the most aggressively traversing-hostile geographies on the planet. It has 1,200 fjords compared to about 240 for Canada. Plus, their mountains are far steeper and more impassable, and the fjords are deeper.
If Norway can run dedicated fibre optic to every hamlet over 500 people there, Canada can run fibre optic to any hamlet anywhere in our country for half the price.
Half the price of per kilometer
But many many more kilometers
Have you seen the North itβs hostile and very big. Not to mention the muskeg.
I'm pretty sure you're conflating the American situation with the Canadian one. America gave various telecoms about $4 billion to expand their networks, with which they did nothing. Canada did other stupid things, such as put a program in place to increase rural broadband in 2019, which is really late to the game, or, in Manitoba, where I live, just give a fiber network laid by a government-owned utility to a local ISP.
Research Xplore-net and circle back to this. The feds poured all kinds of subsidies into this shitty company and it's never been more than a joke among anyone who's ever had to use it. ETA look up hundreds (and thousands that didn't post to the internet) cases like this one where Xplore-net users bailed en masse for Starlink as soon as possible and got fucked around for months with their cancellation and billing workflows.
I can't find it but I'm reasonably sure I remember Xplore-net asking for a bailout or subsidy funding due to their customers fleeing around lockdowns. I'll post it if I can find it.
ETA #2 lol Canadian Broadband Firm Xplore In Talks to Receive Fresh Financing
Naa we gave nearly a trillion to the telcoms. The point stands that while musk is a piece of shit, he did something that govs and other private companies didn't.
Because for some reason America likes private companies doing everything now. They are so dependent on Musk one single citizen itβs ridiculous, and a national security threat.
We've been in that loop for a while. The problem is our gov isn't exactly great at providing shit for the citizens because it's filled with the same people who run the private industries. Which in turn just makes people less trusting of our gov. It's a shit cycle
Geosync has been working for decades. Try again.
Geosync does not work for anything other than we browsing were latency doesn't matter. You can't use it to work from home and its not technically broadband...so try again.
Nobody claimed it's broadband. And nobody claimed they need broadband up there. Nobody is trying to remote into their tech job from the Arctic Circle.
Take your straw men home.
The fuck are you talking about...rural Canada is not the fucking artic circle...jesus you're dense, do you think people who live there don't deserve proper Internet? Do you think people who live there can't be tech workers or people who would remote into a job?
Remote tech workers aren't living in a place without broadband, and I seriously doubt they're moving to villages so remote they get supply planes, as weather allows. And yes the area includes the Arctic Circle. Remote workers are living in a medium sized town with a fiber backbone connection because their job already depends on it. They aren't pining away at Cambridge Bay wishing someone would give them broadband internet.
Large areas of the world are fine without broadband internet. Especially when the method of delivery is to smother LEO with disposable satellites. Trying to extend the western standard of living to every corner of the world instead of ameliorating the standard is a major driver of climate change. Some things just don't work in remote areas.
I'll repaste the same here since you and another basically said the same thing "fuck poor people and rural people and minorities" right?
Lol what a joke, so you're saying people in rural areas don't deserve Internet lol fuck those kids who want to learn, and fuck those people who live out there and don't have the means to live in an expensive city, they should enjoy their shitty connections or no connections at all.
You're hilarious
Geosync Satellite Internet works fine for learning, they still have school and libraries. Geosync has worked for decades, so the question isn't should we screw them over. It's should we upgrade, given the price?
There's plenty of other ways to bring services to these very remote areas and raise their standard of living. Just because one thing is held back does not mean nobody cares about them. It means we're being responsible with our resources and environment.
And it's especially important to question these things whenever people start talking about, "for the kids!"
No it does not, you cannot do any sort of voip learning with it.
Yea they tried that and it failed...
I'm not even going there with you.
I'm sorry. I didn't realize learning online was restricted to VOIP. That's usually solved by just making teachers available there.
But I am going there with you because you started with remote workers and went to "but the kids!" When you realized you were wrong.
The majority of interactions online that matter (e.g. jobs/schools/training/certs) require low latency. Stop fucking acting like they don't.
I pointed all of this out in one large lump, and you ran with "the kids". Which is ironic coming from you, who pulls the "the kids" when it's about gun legislation...
The problem is I've done online classes and you're just full of shit.
Uhh...ok? Have you attempted to do them on geosync satellites with latency in the 2k range? Have you attempted a certification where someone monitors you? All of this does not work with high latency....the fuck are you a sales person for huesnet?
Cambridge bay might be a bad example the research facility is there so imagine that has high speed internet.
You'd be surprised. Sometimes it's better to just clone and send the hard drive. There's always the old half joke about the bandwidth of a station wagon moving a bunch of drives down the interstate.
Ehrm, no to both questions? You live in rural fucking Canada. Connectivity will be shit, that's a given. If you choose a job that relies on that, you should move to where you can actually work.
Fast internet is a privilege, not something people "deserve". Fucking up LEO so people can stream or Netflix or whatever is absolutely not worth it, and imo the practice should be banned. Starlink has been disastrous for astronomy already. Put fiber in if it's so important, expensive but hey, people "deserve" it right?
Lol what a joke, so you're saying people in rural areas don't deserve Internet lol fuck those kids who want to learn, and fuck those people who live out there and don't have the means to live in an expensive city lol
You're hilarious
Not living in an expensive city doesn't equate to living in extremely remote areas. If you choose to live in an area with very few services, then don't expect the rest of the world to bend over backwards to provide those for you at their expense. The sheer entitlement is hilarious.
Besides, there's still internet, just not fast broadband.
That's hilarious, so you think people in developing countries should just get fucked as well then?
Where the fuck did anyone say that? Is this the next level? After the kids?
Go look at pictures of Nairobi and tell me seriously you think they don't have broadband Internet.
You...you did, you're entire argument hinges on "fuck those people, they shouldn't live outside a city"...
No it's they shouldn't expect the same services as even small towns. These are thousand person affairs on or above the Arctic Circle.
Dude, people in small towns are having to use starlink. The fuck are you talking about....my fucking god I cannot believe I'm arguing with someone who thinks basic services shouldn't be provided for their citizens.
Most developing countries have pretty decent internet access already. Maybe not in the more remote areas, but again, access to the internet is not a requirement to live. Internet has barely existed for 30 years, I don't think screwing up LEO in an attempt to bring faster internet to people who didn't have it anyway is remotely reasonable.
You do realize that a massive portion of the world lives in what ISPs consider rural, and refuse to provide the Internet. If this wasn't an issue, then starlink would have never taken off.
You realise that this has held true for literally everywhere, and that it's only a matter of time until they're connected too? Between 2017 and 2023 an additional 20% of the world received internet access, a trend that doesn't appear to be slowing down just yet. By 2030 approximately 80% of the world will have internet access, and somewhere between 2040-2050 we'll consider the entire world to be connected.
I still see absolutely no reason to screw LEO and fill it with sattelites, just so that someone in bumfuck nowhere can Netflix or something. Internet access may be important for a western lifestyle, but the 90s barely anyone had internet and they lived perfectly fine without it. Even before Starlink sattelite internet existed (and still does), it's just slower.
Very little of that is because of ground lines. Starlink services damn near the globe now.
The level of bullshit I'm seeing from you people who seem to only hate starlink because that shit stain musk has his name attached to it, is insane. Internet access for a long time has been pushed as a priority and should be treated as a utility and that everyone should have access to it. Yet here I am defending access and you lot are on a triad of "fuck those people who live in rural areas". You know that some of us are 10miles from town and considered rural? And the big Telecoms refuse to run broadband for us? Rural WISPs are a thing for a reason.
Starlink doesn't cover the globe, it's available in the Americas, Europe and Oceania. It's not available in most of Africa, the Middle East, India, China, Russia, Indochina. E.g. the majority of the world cannot access Starlink.
I don't give a shit that Starlink is owned by Musk. Starlink as a company seems fine (it's not X or anything), but I strongly dislike that their product messes with astronomy in such a major way that astronomists complain about it every chance they get.
Sounds like your fight is with "big telecom" and with your local government for not putting up a good enough quote to run fiber. This isn't an issue for large portions of the world, including rural areas, where they've figured out how to get them to lay fiber.
Access is not the same as high-speed access. Almost all of the world has some level of access, even in rural areas, through sattelites that are not in LEO. Enough to (slowly) browse, not enough to stream in HD. I don't believe sacrificing considerable astronomical discoveries and progress is remotely worth it when feasible alternatives are available and have been used in large areas of the world already.
https://www.starlink.com/map
China/russia/middle east not allowing it, is not the same as not being available. Did you even check the coverage map before replying.
Astronomers complain about light bleed from ground cities as well. No one was telling them to shut down the cities.
Lol no just no... I dont know where you live but the majority of people in rural areas are not served, otherwise starlink would have never taken off and been sustainable. You think businesses just make products for a few people and break even?
Again this myth you keep spouting that the majority of the world has access is bullshit, and the idea that you're basically telling people, well planes exist but you need to walk because you live to far from the airport is some classist bullshit.
So can you use it or is it not available then? And yes, I checked that map, where else do you think I got the list from??
People claim we should turn down city lights all the time! Under what rock have you been living? But for city light bleed, astronomers have an alternative solution, simply place the telescope somewhere not near the cities. And yes, whenever a city tends to grow near one of those telescopes astronomers do kick up a fuss about it.
If you fill LEO with thousands of sattelites, there's nothing astronomers can do about that.
I don't know where you live, Mars perhaps?
https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:InternetPenetrationWorldMap.svg
Clearly shows most of the Earth has internet access. Or do you think the US has no rural areas? They're still above 90% somehow. Oh wait, I know, they must be using those mythical internet-via-sattelite services that existed well before Starlink did! I wonder where you'd find a mythical creature like the Viasat-1 for example.
Starlink took off because they promise higher speeds than some ISPs and most other sattelite companies do at lower cost, not because they're your only option. Starlink has 3 million customers, which makes them the size of a small ISP.
Except for the fact that the data backs me up.
Continuing your analogy, you propose demolishing the local university because people are entitled to fly to Ibiza, or their local supermarket. Or something, it's not like it made much sense anyway.
You still completely failed to address the main point, that universal high-speed internet access is not critical for most of the world, certainly not for areas that have always managed perfectly fine without, and that filling up LEO is a disaster for astronomists that they don't have a workaround for. If you're not going to actually argue that point I think we're done here.
He's switched from remote workers to kids. He's just trying to gin up outrage now.
Yes. Burning debris in the upper atmosphere has unknown effets on the environment, plus the exploitation of rare earth metal that cannot be recycled and the energy expenditure. Musk want to burn more satellites per year than what we ever launched prior to this, and every other greedy company wants to follow suit with their own junk.
Man, just wait until you find out about naturally occurring meteors... They're loaded with metal and are vaporized in the upper atmosphere 24x7x365... and have been doing so for pretty much all of the 4 billion years the planet has been around.
The paper someone links to, shows that meteoroids already dump more than 11.7k metric tons into the atmosphere every year. We know what effects it has.