this post was submitted on 29 Jul 2024
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Demanding historical accuracy from the video game where a prominent plot point is ancient aliens reincarnating themselves through genetic memory is kind of like asking for an authentic Italian style pizza from a California Pizza Kitchen
Not only that, but Italians just copy the pizza from American-Italian's pizzas from NY.
amazing
It's not even true lol, first recorded usage of word "pizza" is from Gaeta in Latium and historically similar food appeared in many cultures going back as far as VI century BCE Persian Empire and possibly even to ancient Troy.
if it dates back to persia then its not italian and therefore is still true
im going to be insufferable with this information thank you
You shouldn't be, even if you choose to define Neapolitan Pizza as the first "real" pizza, it and other styles - such as the pan baked Sicilian - were widespread across central and southern Italy well before the 20th century.
sicilian "pizza" is sfincione - a topped focaccia
so yeah, i can still be insufferable
All Pizza is bread with toppings. If it's not a pizza because it uses the wrong type of bread, so is every single american version of pizza, none of which use a neapolitan dough.
an open face turkey sandwich is not pizza but if that is what you are arguing id love to terrorize italians with this, too
You're trying too hard to be contrarian now - I said "all pizza is bread with toppings", not "all bread with toppings is pizza". Open faced turkey sandwiches are assembled after the constituent parts have been cooked, rather than the bread and toppings being cooked together.
You're not going to terrorise any italians by claiming pizza isn't italian, they're just going to think you're a stupid american, and possibly a redditor when you try to "well acshully" them. If you want to terrorise italians you need to suggest heavily preprocessed foods as pizza toppings, ask how they make their spaghetti bolognese, or yell the names of pasta dishes at them when they're speaking in Italian.
your not going to convince any italians that "sicilian pizza" is pizza either anymore than your silly criteria that defines most focaccia as "pizza" theyll laugh you out of the pizzaria with their silly hand gestures
also "all pizza is bread with toppings" and "all bread with toppings is pizza" is the same construction because it supposes "bread+toppings=pizza" and it doesnt matter if you restructure it as "pizza=bread+toppings" its the same equation einstein
finally i said ill be insufferable about this and you thought this was a motherfucking game?
I mean I first encountered it being sold by sicilians (a type of Italian) as pizza, and then later had it over in Italy courtesy of a Bolognan (another type of Italian) friend, so I feel pretty confident saying you're only right because they're already convinced it's pizza.
Oh come on, you understood how this works three comments ago. It's the entire premise of the article, that neopolitan is a subset of Italian. You know, all squares are rectangles but all rectangles aren't squares. This is what I mean by trying too hard, you're not being insufferable over technicalities, you're just being contrarian and making yourself look ignorant as a result.
Of course I think it's a game, why do you think I'm explaining how to get good?
yes the only reason your italian friends think this is because it was called pizza in america and sent back to italy and therefore is not italian checkmate
and you never address how youve now defined most focaccia as pizza, which you have, and no italian would say focaccia is pizza. additionally the bread can be pre-cooked and still be pizza they sell pre-cooked pizza bread in the store all the time people just put toppings on it and bam, its pizza. a baked flatbread with sauce and cheese on it is pizza precooked or not it doesnt matter your definition is a open faced turkey sandwich counts if you dont like that then reevaluate your definition, bubs
lastly as someone else pointed out the pizza itself goes back much further than italy it goes back all the way to persia which still makes it not italian
This is exactly why I told you to get good, American exceptionalism is embarrassing rather than insufferable. Everyone else has been around and doing stuff without you for thousands of years, get over it and find something to be technically correct about, claiming things for america just makes you look like a completely average american.
Why do you think I was talking about subsets in the last comment? You have to understand that being insufferable involves outwitting your opponents, so demonstrating you can't actually differentiate between having features and only having those features is going to make your job a lot harder. Just look at this picture - the big circle is all bread with toppings, and the smaller one is pizza. I hope you can remember enough of your primary school maths lessons that I don't have to keep explaining.
And then once you've relearnt basic maths you can move plain foccacia back under pizza and look up rome's pizza bianco.
Well thank christ somebody knows some technically correct information (as you say, not you) - yes, as I'm sure will greatly surprise the average American, bread is old as fuck and so is putting things on it. I mean it wasn't called pizza, but it was bread with toppings on it (even through we just went over... nevermind). Are you sure you're cut out for insufferability? It took a lot of guidance from me before you found a technically correct statement, and it wasn't even yours - you had to go back to find a comment from someone else explaining the mistake in order to find something to be insufferable about. You've got the contrarian part down, but there's no knowledge base to pull from so you're making foolish mistakes. I mean, really, "bread + toppings = pizza"? Trying to talk for members of a continent you've never been near? You'd make a great reactionary.
look, first of all the quote thing style of reddit fedora wearing liberal debate-lord is cringe so thats a big strike against everything you are saying as a baseline and really deserves to be disregarding outright as being lib so consider yourself blessed to even be responded to
secondly, just because your bolognese friend took pity on your weak american mind and told you they were serving you pizza proves nothing except their view of your intelligence
lastly, you can squirm away from your own definition all you like but you engage in exactly what the article about pizza being american tackles before it even gets out of hand - pizza is a specific thing, not just bread and toppings as you defined it. it is a specific thing of which its current form was refined in america and re-exported to italy, ie its not just bread and toppings which you now run from at top speed because you realized you done fucked up. so if that new criteria is what you want to go by then its still american by that definition, too. and while we are on that no, the concept of alone pizza doesnt go back to persia, the etymology word itself does as well as it is complex as was pointed out elsewhere so you are still wrong on that account as well, they had a base of the word which meant a form of bread pie with toppings. and the origin of pizza in naples didnt even have toppings, it was more like native american frybread than anything just bread cooked in an oven in olive oil
Lmao, you're so American. You understand this is an international website right?
Do you not understand that you're the only one holding this up as the definition of pizza? Like, I've repeatedly tried to explain sets to you, I truly don't understand what you're finding confusing about the concept. Do you disagree that "a building for people to live in" describes a house, even though it also describes a block of flats? Do you think cars aren't vehicles because bikes and lorries exist? It's just unbelievable that you'd really be so stereotypically American.
Anyway, as I already said, those are someone else's talking points. If you want to be insufferable you're going to have to come up with your own.
I find it unbelievable that you are so stereotypical in the American mindset if you actually aren't from America. It just goes to show how much of America we've exported around the world. We've literally colonized your mind and it's especially obvious in the way you do this little reddit-brained liberal quote response thing. It ignores the wholeness of the material conditions of a discussion to focus on specific individual elements and is extremely un-Marxist in it's approach. This is exactly why re-education will be mandatory.
That said, if I cannot use your definition of what pizza is and I cannot use other's definitions of what pizza is or their research or their talking points (and I have no idea why you think this is a rule, perhaps another derangement of your cognitive liberalization) let us approach this from a different way. I find it curious that, the Americanization of pizza which labelled Sicilian sfinciuni as pizza became so ubiquitous that it was exported back to Italy and the Italians have now adopted it as pizza as well, abandoning the very way they traditionally viewed what pizza was and conforming to the American conception. Outstanding that they reconceptualized what pizza even is because we did so first in America. A big strike against Italy as the originators of pizza there so that's for laying the groundwork.
But if we are going to explore that further here in America we have all kinds of things we label "pizza". Pizza without sauce. Pizza that is a giant chocolate chip pastry with frosting and other sweet toppings on on it. Bagel Bites, a pizza on mini bagels. In fact, by utilizing Hegalian analysis of this situation we can say that the synthesis of what we see as pizza could be a bagel with cheese on it and no sauce. Yes, a toasted bagel with cream cheese from a NY deli is a pizza utilizing all the components and configurations that we already accept in America as pizza. It is almost certainly not an Italian invention but I'm sure you friend in Baloney will be serving you this new pizza as a local delicacy in the near future.
The american thinks their attempts to be insufferable are praxis
It's your definition? You're still the one who decided it was "the definition of pizza". I have explained it to you multiple times. Like could you at least acknowledge that you've heard of set theory if you won't tackle the learning examples.
Uh no, learn to read idiot, you can't use other people's arguments for why pizza isn't Italian. You haven't actually chosen to define it other than "anything an American calls pizza".
Of course you don't, that's why I responded in the first place.
Ok, this one's a good bit, I'll give you that.
i dont know what reddit shit this is but its literally unreadable
No it isn't, you were reading it fine a comment ago. Bit sad to start playing dumb this late tbh.
its random sentences responded to in a void devolving into more and more liberal reddit nonsense without thesis. its nothing contrarian vomit
I don't know if you've encountered like... the entire concept of saying things in a public space before, but I don't need to form a thesis - I'm just pointing out the uncited claims and nonsequiters in yours. I admit that maybe I shouldn't have overestimated your ability to grasp context with the last one, but you're literally telling me a bagel, like a thing literally called a BAGEL bite, is actually a pizza, so don't try to accuse me of contrarian word vomit, because it's obvious to even the most passive observer that you're just projecting.